alliances

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Posted by Austin Martus, Other on team #47 from son of pchs coach.

Posted on 4/26/99 7:00 PM MST



What FIRST should have done is come up with a way of in the qualifying you get points for what you've (your own team) has done instead or something like that. cause if you get *stuck*(paired) with a robot that is not very good(dont move or get on puck or anything) then youre screwed and have to do everything by you self which makes it 2 on 1 and really hard to get a lot of points and only have alliances(score for both) in the final rounds, but this would have to happen at the beginning of the year cause the building of a robot would depend on something like this

or some kind of rule like this

just a thought


also to make the finals more accurate to have a double elimination finals but the draw back is it takes much more time

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Posted by Daniel, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 4/26/99 7:45 PM MST


In Reply to: alliances posted by Austin Martus on 4/26/99 7:00 PM MST:



I think you make a very good point, but I also think there's a much better solution to the problem. See, by scoring individually it kills the strategy. Both robots suddenly have to be high scorers. Nobody would ever want to play a defensive match. Or even let their partner take care of any of the points. In fact, I could see it getting to the point where a partner is practically fighting with its ALLY over the floppies. Individual scoring wouldn't work.

Statistically, the most proven way to eliminate chance and luck is increasing the trials. More matches were needed. A team who gets a good partner and perhaps gets a 540 round (or something close to it) will essentially be guaranteed a place in the finals. Whether they deserve it or not. This is not right. More matches are needed. Period.

Whether this means more arenas, or merely a longer competition, I think this is a more valid solution to a very valid problem. What do you think?


-Daniel

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Posted by Joe Johnson, Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 4/26/99 8:14 PM MST


In Reply to: Valid problem. Valid solution? posted by Daniel on 4/26/99 7:45 PM MST:



I can't confirm it, but I have heard that one team at the Nationals was literally a box with wheels. No motors, no wires, not even a battery or control box!

Is this right?

Teams that had to be paired with this team had no chance of scoring more than 180 points and most likely would even have a hard time doing that against any two 1/2 way decent teams.

I know of teams that had 0 partners out of 6 get on the puck, while they got on the puck every time in addition to getting the 2 point doubler every time. Others had the exact opposite.

I am not complaining, I am just pointing out that the luck of the draw played a bigger role than ever in determining the top 16 teams.

The picking of alliance partners leveled this out in many cases, but there are cases like the TRW team (and Boston Edison/Plymouth North and others), where things didn't really work out so very well.

I don't really have a solution, but I think that this is a topic that there should be open discussion about.

What do you think?

Joe J.

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Posted by Chris, Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.

Posted on 4/26/99 9:34 PM MST


In Reply to: a box with wheels posted by Joe Johnson on 4/26/99 8:14 PM MST:



I have to reply to this one because our team was mentioned.

Yes, there was a team that was a box on wheels. And wouldn't you know it, they were our partners in one match. In fact, we were in 7th place going in to that match and needless to say we weren't 7th coming out. However, I am proud to say that we won that match (like all of our other matches ).

-Chris


: I can't confirm it, but I have heard that one team at the Nationals was literally a box with wheels. No motors, no wires, not even a battery or control box!

: Is this right?

: Teams that had to be paired with this team had no chance of scoring more than 180 points and most likely would even have a hard time doing that against any two 1/2 way decent teams.

: I know of teams that had 0 partners out of 6 get on the puck, while they got on the puck every time in addition to getting the 2 point doubler every time. Others had the exact opposite.

: I am not complaining, I am just pointing out that the luck of the draw played a bigger role than ever in determining the top 16 teams.

: The picking of alliance partners leveled this out in many cases, but there are cases like the TRW team (and Boston Edison/Plymouth North and others), where things didn't really work out so very well.

: I don't really have a solution, but I think that this is a topic that there should be open discussion about.

: What do you think?

: Joe J.

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Posted by Chris, Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.

Posted on 4/26/99 10:12 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: a box with wheels posted by Chris on 4/26/99 9:34 PM MST:



I have to add something. The box with wheels did have a control box and it could move around. Although when we played with them they blew a fuse and we were on our own.

-Chris


: I have to reply to this one because our team was mentioned.

: Yes, there was a team that was a box on wheels. And wouldn't you know it, they were our partners in one match. In fact, we were in 7th place going in to that match and needless to say we weren't 7th coming out. However, I am proud to say that we won that match (like all of our other matches ).

: -Chris

:
: : I can't confirm it, but I have heard that one team at the Nationals was literally a box with wheels. No motors, no wires, not even a battery or control box!

: : Is this right?

: : Teams that had to be paired with this team had no chance of scoring more than 180 points and most likely would even have a hard time doing that against any two 1/2 way decent teams.

: : I know of teams that had 0 partners out of 6 get on the puck, while they got on the puck every time in addition to getting the 2 point doubler every time. Others had the exact opposite.

: : I am not complaining, I am just pointing out that the luck of the draw played a bigger role than ever in determining the top 16 teams.

: : The picking of alliance partners leveled this out in many cases, but there are cases like the TRW team (and Boston Edison/Plymouth North and others), where things didn't really work out so very well.

: : I don't really have a solution, but I think that this is a topic that there should be open discussion about.

: : What do you think?

: : Joe J.

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Posted by Dave, Student on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW.

Posted on 4/27/99 5:32 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: a box with wheels posted by Chris on 4/26/99 10:12 PM MST:



Hey,

That match was most intresting, because at the end of the match, we were the only functioning robot, Husky Brigade had a chain pop off, the box blew a fuse, and the other robot was immobile and got tipped.

And for being paired with different robots that can't do much, I know how it is on both sides of the road. At Great Lakes, we were one of those robots that couldn't get on the puck and plagued by problems. But at nationals, we tangled with the best and came out on top, and we were occasionally paired with robots that were like us at Great Lakes. Just remember that no matter how frustrated you get because of it, the team that didn't work right is more then likely more frustrated then you are.

I also have to agree on the thing about minuim requirments before you enter a match. Using this year as an example, have it move and somehow have a device to succesfully hold at least 1 floppy. And if a team mate doesn't show up, I think they should have gotten their points doubled. If they get a 1 man 180 point game, doubling it would give you a 360, still not a perfect score, but a score that is more deserving if you do that good.


Dave

: I have to add something. The box with wheels did have a control box and it could move around. Although when we played with them they blew a fuse and we were on our own.

: -Chris

:
: : I have to reply to this one because our team was mentioned.

: : Yes, there was a team that was a box on wheels. And wouldn't you know it, they were our partners in one match. In fact, we were in 7th place going in to that match and needless to say we weren't 7th coming out. However, I am proud to say that we won that match (like all of our other matches ).

: : -Chris

: :
: : : I can't confirm it, but I have heard that one team at the Nationals was literally a box with wheels. No motors, no wires, not even a battery or control box!

: : : Is this right?

: : : Teams that had to be paired with this team had no chance of scoring more than 180 points and most likely would even have a hard time doing that against any two 1/2 way decent teams.

: : : I know of teams that had 0 partners out of 6 get on the puck, while they got on the puck every time in addition to getting the 2 point doubler every time. Others had the exact opposite.

: : : I am not complaining, I am just pointing out that the luck of the draw played a bigger role than ever in determining the top 16 teams.

: : : The picking of alliance partners leveled this out in many cases, but there are cases like the TRW team (and Boston Edison/Plymouth North and others), where things didn't really work out so very well.

: : : I don't really have a solution, but I think that this is a topic that there should be open discussion about.

: : : What do you think?

: : : Joe J.

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Posted by Reuben Hintz, Student on team #53 from Eleanor Roosevelt HS.

Posted on 4/28/99 1:02 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: a box with wheels posted by Dave on 4/27/99 5:32 PM MST:



You couldn't double the points though, because a lot of teams wouldn't want their alliance partner to show up.
I kind of feel bad about this subject too, because well, our team's robot didn't do very well. We kept telling people we could get on the puck, and we kept failing. That really hurt some of our partner's scores and made me feel really bad.

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Posted by Dave, Student on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW.

Posted on 4/30/99 8:02 PM MST


In Reply to: Crappy Teams posted by Reuben Hintz on 4/28/99 1:02 PM MST:



Hey,
I don't think that would be the case, since they could be going against 2 good robots and get swamped. With this way, it would reward the team for doing good on their own, but they still have to work hard to get a good score. To get a 360 under my system, the team would have to get all 10 floppies, push the puck against 2 teams, then climb on it against 2 teams. It would be very hard to do, let alone most teams of 2 didn't even come close to picking up all 10 floppies.

Dave

: You couldn't double the points though, because a lot of teams wouldn't want their alliance partner to show up.
: I kind of feel bad about this subject too, because well, our team's robot didn't do very well. We kept telling people we could get on the puck, and we kept failing. That really hurt some of our partner's scores and made me feel really bad.

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Posted by Joe Johnson, Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 4/27/99 8:15 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: a box with wheels posted by Chris on 4/26/99 10:12 PM MST:



Usually reliable sources say that this 'robot' was literally just a box with wheels, no battery, no rnet, no nothing.

Joe J.

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Posted by michael bastoni of team #23, PNTA, from Plymouth North High School sponsored by Boston Edison Co.

Posted on 4/28/99 8:07 PM MST


In Reply to: not even a battery posted by Joe Johnson on 4/27/99 8:15 PM MST:



Battery yes
Rnet yes
Speed controller yes (but no capacitors on them)
Control box yes

BUT NO MOTORS....

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Posted by Sean Kim, Student on team #115 from Monta Vista High School.

Posted on 4/26/99 11:24 PM MST


In Reply to: a box with wheels posted by Joe Johnson on 4/26/99 8:14 PM MST:



Um...box with the wheel can PUSH the puck...right?
it's better than having ONLY the human player as the partner...

kison

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Posted by Mike King, Other on team #88, TJ², from Bridgewater Raynham and Johnson & Johnson Professional.

Posted on 4/27/99 4:37 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: a box with wheels posted by Sean Kim on 4/26/99 11:24 PM MST:



: Um...box with the wheel can PUSH the puck...right?
: it's better than having ONLY the human player as the partner...

: kison

Some teams didn't even have the human player.

Mike

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Posted by Joe Johnson, Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 4/27/99 8:32 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: a box with wheels posted by Sean Kim on 4/26/99 11:24 PM MST:



Listen to me...

It was a box with wheels. It did not have even a single motor, nor a single wire, nor any other means of doing anything!

If I put a screw out there and claim it is a robot, would that make it a robot?

The IDEA of a box with wheels being a participant at the NATIONALS next to all the teams that that put in 1000's of hours making a robot is insulting.

Is this in the long-term interest of FIRST? I don't think so...

Joe J.

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Posted by Chris, Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.

Posted on 4/28/99 10:26 AM MST


In Reply to: it had no MOTORS! posted by Joe Johnson on 4/27/99 8:32 PM MST:



Does anyone know what team number this robot was? The robot that I saw was a plywood box with wheels, but all of the motors, RNET, and the battery were inside the plywood box. They lifted a lid to put the RNET in. I saw this robot move in another match, but it died in our match. Are you sure this isn't the robot you're thinking of Joe? Maybe they blew a fuse when you saw them like they did in our match?

I would like to make sure we're not thinking of different robots. I only saw one in the pits that was a box with wheels and it was the one we played with. Also, the robot I'm talking about has a 'No Smoking' sign on it.

-Chris


: Listen to me...

: It was a box with wheels. It did not have even a single motor, nor a single wire, nor any other means of doing anything!

: If I put a screw out there and claim it is a robot, would that make it a robot?

: The IDEA of a box with wheels being a participant at the NATIONALS next to all the teams that that put in 1000's of hours making a robot is insulting.

: Is this in the long-term interest of FIRST? I don't think so...

: Joe J.

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Posted by michael bastoni of team #23, PNTA, from Plymouth North High School sponsored by Boston Edison Co.

Posted on 4/28/99 8:04 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: it had no MOTORS! posted by Chris on 4/28/99 10:26 AM MST:




By the time we played it...it had no motors...they were 'reworking it' and could not get them back in time for the match....
Really no one could have...

Do you folks remember the year most of MIT's robot did not show up in NH
At least they had the good sense not to enter it (as I remember)...

And really...I'm not trying to beat up a team but I am trying to make a point...and I think
you'd have to be dead to have missed this point....

So let's forgive and forget this team's number....let's make sure
this never happens again...

And if we kept the game the same for 4-5 years...we all would have more time to make our
robots work better.....what about the rookie NASCAR teams.....c'mon
guys....this thing about the rookie teams is a weak argument...WE WERE ALL ROOKIES ONCE.

And I'm betting you'll never forget the thrill and mixed emotions that
filled that rookie year.....So don't cry for the rookies....they will have all year
to watch the game, visit teams and plan their strategy....IT WILL BE A DISTINCT ADVANTAGE
to entering rookie teams.....

Be good out there in Robot Nation...