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New Poll! (2)

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Bite the bullet in 2000

Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 5/27/99 8:56 PM MST


In Reply to: New Poll posted by PollMaster on 5/27/99 8:30 PM MST:



With a 40% growth rate, it is only a matter of time before the Nationals cannot be 'come if you want to' event.

The spector of 500 or 1000 teams at the Nationals makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

I say that FIRST should address this problem in 2000.

Joe J.


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I'm going to have to disagree

Posted by Tom Vanderslice.

Student on team #275, ORHS/AST/Hitachi, from Academy of Science and Technology and Hitachi.

Posted on 5/27/99 11:51 PM MST


In Reply to: Bite the bullet in 2000 posted by Joe Johnson on 5/27/99 8:56 PM MST:



I'm gonna have to disagree with you about doing it next year...

Undoubtedly (sp?) it will have to happen eventually, but I think they
ought to figure out how to add another day to the finals schedule before
limiting the number of teams. I don't think you can really tell teams
there must be a qualification of some sort for nationals w/out assuring
there is a regional EVERYONE can easily get too. (this is a big problem
in texas...where our regional was cancelled this year b/c of not enough
teams signed up...b/c even if you have a lot of teams in texas...its
still a hike just to get to the competition...you have some serious travel
time involved...but there are places that its even farther to the nearest
regional)...anyway...what i'm trying to say is...if you have them
qualify you completely discourage real growth in any area where there
isn't a regional...there are many teams out there whose goal is just to get to
nationals...it is a big deal for them...if they can't come it takes away from
a lot of the competition...but like i said...eventually it will have to happen
there is no way around it...i just don't think next year is the year to do it...

Tom
Team 275
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I'm going to have to agree

Posted by Frank Toussaint.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Wheeling and Rolling Meadows and Motorola .

Posted on 5/28/99 7:52 AM MST


In Reply to: I'm going to have to disagree posted by Tom Vanderslice on 5/27/99 11:51 PM MST:



I'm gonna have to agree - with Tom. Let's put this restriction off
for as long as possible.

The idea of 500 or 1000 teams at the nationals warms my heart and
jolts my adrenalin. If FIRST can manage it, well, great!


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Yeah....me, too

Posted by Susanne Krussell.

Coach on team #163, The Quantum Mechanics, from International Academy and Quantum Consultants/Eaton/ITT.

Posted on 5/28/99 6:04 PM MST


In Reply to: I'm going to have to disagree posted by Tom Vanderslice on 5/27/99 11:51 PM MST:



Well Joe, You sure know how to start a good conversation! The thought of not making Nationals is frightening to me. FIRST is important in the life of my kids (and me, too!) This seems pretty exclusionary. New teams, shaky teams, low-budget teams, and teams who have a bad year will all be adversely affected. . Going to Nationals is a prime motivator. And I mean Nationals, NOT Disney. The kids come for the Nationals. To lose all hope of that with a poor showing at regionals is a cruel and unusual punishment. While I recognize the impending problem, Dean has said all along that he wants thousands of teams. They can work this out without excluding teams. I figure that as long as the economy does so well, we're in business funding-wise from the engineering companies. There are always more solutions to any problem, and I do not want to see kids lose an opportunity like the Nationals due to an overcrowding situation. Geez!


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disney's big...use it.

Posted by Daniel.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 5/28/99 7:15 PM MST


In Reply to: Yeah....me, too posted by Susanne Krussell on 5/28/99 6:04 PM MST:



When we were talking aboout how to get more QM matches squeezed in at nationals, there were three major options:

1) More arenas
2) More time
3) Less practice

All apply in this case as well...

Number two is scary. It's hard enough to live with the days that we miss as it is. So forget that one.

Number three is cruel and unusual to rookie teams that don't have enough money to go to both a regional and nationals. Besides, we all know how valuable practice is. So let's scratch number three as well.

What are we left with? More arenas.

Disney has space! Why aren't we using it? I know FIRST is understaffed, but shouldn't they be growing with the times?

Here's how I envision nationals. There are about five regional-sized groups that compete within themselves and have finals in their own group. You may complain that this is unfair, that you might get unlucky and be in a tough group, but if you didn't notice, FIRST did it this year; they just didn't separate us physically. I think physical separation is the next logical step. Take those groups and put two arenas each, on three sides of the pit area. Teams would always be at one of the two arenas for their section. It wouldn’t be so confusing that way. Anyway, something along those lines...

Maybe we could even use regionals to pick what group teams fall into. This would make it a LITTLE more fair...

Anyway, I'm just thinking aloud here. Anyone care to join me?


-Daniel



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Re: The bullet will be bit in 2000

Posted by Dan.

Student on team #10, BSM, from Benilde-St. Margaret's and Banner Engineering.

Posted on 5/28/99 1:58 PM MST


In Reply to: Bite the bullet in 2000 posted by Joe Johnson on 5/27/99 8:56 PM MST:



I was lucky enough to meet with some FIRST staff not to long ago for our Lego League competition and they desparately wanted Nationals to be an invite-only affair. From an organization standpoint they were more than maxxed out this year and couldn't handle 40% more teams without some major help.
Whether I want this to happen or not, I'm not sure, but I'm almost positive it is going to happen. :-Dan



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The question is- is this how is should be addressed?

Posted by colleen.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Student on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro.

Posted on 5/28/99 3:05 PM MST


In Reply to: Bite the bullet in 2000 posted by Joe Johnson on 5/27/99 8:56 PM MST:




I'll have to say, I put in a vote of 'Agree', and I agree with DrJ, it's got to be cut down before the nationals, or those are going to become a weeklong event because you won't be able to squeeze it into 3 days anymore.

But what I don't necessarily agree with is how to solve this overcrowded problem. Using the regionals as a qualifier and then for wildcard spots using rank and other awards submissions is a good idea. A good idea with stipulations that is. I still think that's an unfair route to travel with rookie teams. For many (and the veteren teams too) the regional is like a practice, often a first exposure to many drivers and operators of what the competition's going to be like and I think that is needed if you are going to make the regional a really important competition.

So, in a nutshell, in order for that solution to be a bit more fair around, maybe FIRST could set up (at least there needs to be more) of the pre-competition scrimmages that some teams have to allow teams the exposure and the chance to fix unforseen problems before the competition. One way to do that would be to have the 6 week building period than a one-week practice time.. basically extending the build period, but that way no one can cry unfair if they do bad in competition

just an idea


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Re: Bite the bullet in 2000

Posted by Becky Sherman.

Student on team #27, The Rush, from OSMTech Academy and DaimlerChrysler.

Posted on 5/28/99 3:22 PM MST


In Reply to: Bite the bullet in 2000 posted by Joe Johnson on 5/27/99 8:56 PM MST:



I agree. With 500 or a 1000 teams, nationals cannot be a mere four days. If it was, then teams would only have 3 or 4 seeding rounds, unless FIRST makes nationals a week long event. A week long competition is almost too much. For one thing its a lot more expensive for the teams and FIRST, plus a week is a long time to be missing school or work.

Besides, I think making teams compete for nationals makes it all that much more fun and competitive. But that's just my opinion.


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some possible alternatives

Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 5/28/99 7:36 PM MST


In Reply to: Bite the bullet in 2000 posted by Joe Johnson on 5/27/99 8:56 PM MST:



I have been involved in serious discussions with many folks on this issue. Somehow, someway, someday this is not going to fit in one 3 day event at Disney (or anywhere else for that matter!).

Some folks have proposed extending the event extra days. This is possible, but I am not a big fan of this idea. My major reason against it is that that way lies madness. 40% growth eventually means the entire month of May is spent in a parking lot in Florida ;-)

I have heard other possible solutions that are being proposed.

One is the idea of having a 'Rookie Nationals' followed by a non-rookie Nationals the following week. Actually, this really only buys us one or at most 2 more years.

A variant on the above proposal is to have an invitation only non-rookie Nationals in a year or two after we have grown to where even without the rookies, we are still to big to fit into one competition. One benefit of this system is that in addition to putting of the day of reckoning when teams have to earn a slot at the Nationals, it allows rookie teams to get a shot at going to Disney their 1st FIRST year. The thinking being that teams many need the encouragement and inspiration of a trip to WDW their first year, but after that we have them hooked!

Another proposals is to have two National Weekends at EPCOT. Teams would be randomly divided between the weekends. Matches would be played only until N teams (N to be determined) are left. All awards, including the Chairman's Award would be given out each week. The 2N teams from the two weeks meet a month or so later at the NATIONAL FINALS (hopefully held in some TV studio and broadcast on TV). A benefit of this is that it is scalable, meaning that we can grow to 3 weekends, 4 weekends, etc. as we grow. If we can pull of the TV thing, it would allow background spots on drivers, coaches, and other interesting characters from the qualifying teams to be produced much like the spots that air along with the Olympics. It would go a long way to developing the personalities I think would make us even more likely to get on Prime Time TV (can you say, 'Peekaboo Street!').

Yet another proposal that I have heard proposed is to have teams qualify this year for next year's Nationals. For instance, this year teams would be given some criteria that would qualify them for the '01 Nationals (of course the '00 Nationals would still be open to all). Rookies would either have their own weekend or would be given automatic entry or would be shut out, depending on the temperament of the proposer . Anyway, this would give teams time to plan for their trip to Florida. It would also allow FIRST to promote other goals they wish to promote (e.g. all Chairman's Award Finalists may be given a invitation).

Perhaps you have other proposals. Do tell.

Comments are welcome.

Joe J.


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and another thing...

Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 5/28/99 7:54 PM MST


In Reply to: some possible alternatives posted by Joe Johnson on 5/28/99 7:36 PM MST:



Some more comments about the multiple weekend proposal (can you tell which one I like best ;-):

More winners.

FIRST really needs to improve the prizes to teams ratio. Especially in the Chairman's Award area. There are simply too many teams doing too much good work for FIRST not to increase the number of teams that they recognize for this Award. The same goes for many of their other awards.

Also, many more teams get to go home a 'winner' from Disney because N teams all can brag about making it to the FINALS. They can all go home and get on the local news. They can all get on the local news as they head off again to compete the National Finals. Only one (or actually three if they keep the current format) will eventually be able to claim the title of National Champs, but, for a few weeks, they are all winners.

Finally, it is cheaper for Disney and hopefully that will translate into a cheaper Disney package for all teams. It took between 1 and 2 MILLION for Disney to build the complex that we used for the Nationals. It would have cost them very little (relatively speaking) to keep it up for another week. This would allow Disney to spread the costs out a little better and again, hopefully be reflected in a cheaper package for the teams that attend the Nationals Weekends.

Joe J.


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Re: and another thing...

Posted by Tom Vanderslice.

Student on team #275, ORHS/AST/Hitachi, from Academy of Science and Technology and Hitachi.

Posted on 5/29/99 1:26 PM MST


In Reply to: and another thing... posted by Joe Johnson on 5/28/99 7:54 PM MST:



Multiple weekends sounds like a really cool idea...gives everybody a
shot at disney etc...but you still have teh problem of $$$...

Just an informal poll...how many teams stretch to get as much $ as
possible to get as much of their teams as possible to disney ONCE??

no offense to you Joe...or the others...but many of you are speaking from
the perspective of the 'rich teams'...another 10 or 15k to send people
for antoher weekend is a big deal but still feasible for you guys...for
the smaller teams its a HUGE stretch...basically...what multiple weekends
does is give everyone a chance to go to a 'regional @ disney' and qualifying
for nationals from there...

and again i'll say...i know something will be necessary eventually...
probably soon...but next year it seems there are other avenues we could
pursue first.

My 2 cents..
Tom
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Re: and another thing...

Posted by Fran .

Other on team #166, Team Merrimack, from Merrimack High School and Unitrode/R.S. Machines.

Posted on 5/31/99 1:16 AM MST


In Reply to: and another thing... posted by Joe Johnson on 5/28/99 7:54 PM MST:



I'm not sure which route is best but I expect FIRST will grow big enough to follow the route that Odessey of the Mind(OM) follows.Every state sends a team for each problem to 'worlds' but they get to States by qualifying through regionals(NH has about 15 regionals). As every school will someday have a team then you could have local qualifying regionals that teams could attend several without major travel expenses(hopefully competition fees won't be so steep). Even State winners would be on several levels, if all these local competitions are being put together after nationals then obviously FIRST can train state groups to run things. OM is similar but simpler..they select
world reps in April with World competition in May so those teams don't have much fundraising time either but they are only sending 7 people per team.
Many Students like the smaller regional competitions better because the smaller scale allows you to really see the competition and not get lost in the huge shuffle of nationals....how many watched nationals on the pit screen and not on the stage..it's different seeing only what the camera allows. At regionals and the small local meets far more people are focused on the match in the arena. Nationals is great to meet everyone but you don't see as much....it is certainly needed to be experienced but surely there is a way to satisfy the need to compete more than once, or twice, or thrice...I can keep going. I guess I'm just rambling but it's food for thought



s






Some more comments about the multiple weekend proposal (can you tell which one I like best ;-):

: More winners.

: FIRST really needs to improve the prizes to teams ratio. Especially in the Chairman's Award area. There are simply too many teams doing too much good work for FIRST not to increase the number of teams that they recognize for this Award. The same goes for many of their other awards.

: Also, many more teams get to go home a 'winner' from Disney because N teams all can brag about making it to the FINALS. They can all go home and get on the local news. They can all get on the local news as they head off again to compete the National Finals. Only one (or actually three if they keep the current format) will eventually be able to claim the title of National Champs, but, for a few weeks, they are all winners.

: Finally, it is cheaper for Disney and hopefully that will translate into a cheaper Disney package for all teams. It took between 1 and 2 MILLION for Disney to build the complex that we used for the Nationals. It would have cost them very little (relatively speaking) to keep it up for another week. This would allow Disney to spread the costs out a little better and again, hopefully be reflected in a cheaper package for the teams that attend the Nationals Weekends.

: Joe J.


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Just some thoughts...

Posted by Tom Vanderslice.

Student on team #275, ORHS/AST/Hitachi, from Academy of Science and Technology and Hitachi.

Posted on 5/29/99 1:56 PM MST


In Reply to: some possible alternatives posted by Joe Johnson on 5/28/99 7:36 PM MST:



Ok...basically every proposed idea falls into 2 categories...

1)
Teams don't find out they are going to nationals until fairly soon
before nationals...then they must arrange travel, etc...and things get
even more expensive...now..i really dislike this idea...(see other
messages) but i think it is better than..

2)
Teams qualify for next years nationals this year. This skirts the
'unexpected expenses' problem...but brigns up a lot of issues like...
first a foremost...SENIOR Student's mentality: seniors should be the
leaders on the team...but if the seniors get the mentality of my team
gets rewarded next year for what we do this year for the team...but we
don't get to see anything unless last years team did well also and we
get to go to nationals this year...students become less enthusiastic
when they can't test their machine against this years top machines...

one solution to this problem could be a combination of the two...
something that i kind of thought of while sitting reading these messages
kind of based on the concept of (gee of all 'sports' to choose from) PGA
golf...now i won't claim to know the particulars...but from what i've
gathered...golfers ont eh tour get to stay on if they've won $x amount of
money or placed well enough in different qualifying tournamnets etc...and
if you don't qualify then to get back ont eh tour you have to go through
some qualifying school which i guess is some kind of group of tournaments
where you can prove you belong on the tour (all you golf buffs out there
will have to help this story out some...but you get the idea)...

if we applied this concept to FIRST you could have the 'traditional powerhouses'
the teams that placed well in recent years at both regionals and nationals
and in the chairman's awards etc...and then the regionals can be the
'qualifying school' of sorts...so teams that have done well before KNOW
they can go this year...but teams that haven't or who are rookies still
have a chance at qualifying...now i haven't worked all this out i know
there are still problems with it...but my thinking behind this is that it
would alleviate some of the 'unexpected expenses' problem with not
qualifying until a few months before...while allowing the traditionally good
teams to get they're practice in at regionals etc...and not have to worry
about a hardware problem or some other glitch where they perform poorly
at regionals...but can be fixed...those kinds of things...


another idea i just had about #2 would be to keep the same game a few years
i don't like this solution either...i like the new game each year...
the new challenge...that's what makes it fun...but it is apossibility...
this would really turn it more into a sport that has basically a season
when ther eis a competition ever weekend and you compete for the 'big dance'
or whatever you want to call it...and in the end...that is probably what
we are headed for...the biggest problem is...how much school/work can be
missed for FIRST...but oh well...

I'll stop writing for a while and think some more...

Tom
Team 275

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Re: Just some thoughts...

Posted by Bethany Dunning.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #163, Quantum Mechanics, from International Academy and Quantum Consultants/EATON/ITT Industries.

Posted on 5/29/99 4:57 PM MST


In Reply to: Just some thoughts... posted by Tom Vanderslice on 5/29/99 1:56 PM MST:



If nationals absolutetly has to be invitation only, I would maybe suggest having regionals in the spring, followed by Nationals in the fall? Only problem with this is, you get into problems with graduation and such, as well as hurricane season in florida. Ok, rethink (I'm obviously typing as I think here!) How about regionals in the fall, end around Christmas time, so that fall semester is FIRST instead of winter semester, and have Nationals when they are held now? Of course, I agree with Sue Krussell in that I think Nationals is an incredible experience, as good if not better for learning than a regional, gives everyone a chance to meet sooo many other people, exchange ideas, see how other teams are run, see more machines, and oh so much more, and I think an invite-only event should be an absolute last resort to growth.


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