pic: Legal Frame ????????????????

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

You got an award for blatantly breaking a rule?

I understand it's by no means your fault, and you obviously didn't mean to, but how could that happen in FIRST?

It's not likely that many judges have studied the rules...they are not the robot inspectors, after all.

[GCentola]

what about a curved bumper?

[maltz1881]

I find it odd that they are taking away creativity when there is an award for it! I personally don't see the harm in having a concave design. Where is the fun in building a box (rectangle) on wheels? Our team is known for doing things in a strange way!! We love that about us. Joe should be on the GDC because of his creative mind. He has inspired dozens of kids being a "wild and crazzzzy guy"!! The kids are bummed but we will go build a nice box on wheels!!

[whackedwatchdog]

Originally Posted by maltz1881

I find it odd that they are taking away creativity when there is an award for it! I personally don't see the harm in having a concave design. Where is the fun in building a box (rectangle) on wheels? Our team is known for doing things in a strange way!! We love that about us. Joe should be on the GDC because of his creative mind. He has inspired dozens of kids being a "wild and crazzzzy guy"!! The kids are bummed but we will go build a nice box on wheels!!

You don't have to create a box. You simply have to have all external corners. A triangle is perfectly legal. A trapezoid (Wider on one side, narrowing down) is allowed. There are a number of shapes that are perfectly legal that don't break any rules. Obviously, I'm not a part of the GDC, I have no bearing on the rules, but I imagine that the idea is to reduce the risk of entanglement and to ensure that things aren't going to be as easy to break.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Mr.G

We were the team that had the tee design last year and won an award for it at our first event. At the first event the ref's questioned the design but concluded that they couldn't see that it was positively in violation of any rule. But asked if we would ask the GDC to verify and we did here: http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=15188 As you can see they never responded even after many phone calls. We showed up at our second event and they told us we couldn't compete. We could have fixed it in the fix it window if they had responded. But instead were forced to fix it at the event. Redoing the frame and bumpers was not easy.

The whole thing was handled very badly with FIRST. I was very sad to see the rule in the rule book again this year. It is a very confusing rule that really should just say "no inside corners are allowed"

After much arguing at the event they finally told us what part we were in violation of. They interpret it as: The outer-most exterior vertices (aka corners) are the perimeter. Thus if you have an inside corner it is not outer-most and thus is not allowed.

They tell us not to lawyer the rules but then they don't write them like an engineer would and it forces us to lawyer them.

Here are this years rules:
BUMPER PERIMETER – the polygon defined by the outer-most set of exterior vertices of the BUMPERS when they are attached to the HOSTBOT. (To identify the BUMPER PERIMETER, wrap a string around the BUMPERS at the level of the BUMPER ZONE - the string describes the polygon.)

FRAME PERIMETER – the polygon defined by the outer-most set of exterior vertices on the HOSTBOT (without the BUMPERS attached) that are within the BUMPER ZONE.

In blue: To determine the FRAME PERIMETER, wrap a piece of string around the HOSTBOT at the level of the BUMPER ZONE - the string describes this polygon. Note: to permit a simplified definition of the FRAME PERIMETER and encourage a tight, robust connection between the BUMPERS and the FRAME PERIMETER, minor protrusions such as bolt heads, fastener ends, rivets, etc are excluded from the determination of the FRAME PERIMETER.

The string example was in the rules last year, it is a simple rule and if you REALLY struggle with doing it in your head get some freaking string and drive some nails into plywood. If the string doesn't touch the nail it isn't a valid vertex on your bumper perimeter.

As for it being handled poorly at FIRST's end I have to agree, the inspectors at your FIRST event should not have allowed you to compete at all and it sucks that they lacked the understanding of the bumper rules. I was at that event and I also saw teams competing without batteries secured down and with black bumpers. I admit, my brother got sick of my picking at least one team a match that shouldn't be allowed on the field because they shouldn't have passed inspection. (This was Saturday and is only a SLIGHT exaggeration)

Originally Posted by squirrel

It's not likely that many judges have studied the rules...they are not the robot inspectors, after all.

You're right, but it is hard to give a robot that isn't on the field an award and 326 should NOT have been on the field.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Mr.G

We couldn't get penalties for the soccer balls going more then 4 inches under the robot because the robot/frame was only 4 inches wide. That idea is what we got the award for.

Thats actually really clever (and also illegal) considering how many of those penalties that got called in week 1. Are there any pictures of it?

I remember at MARC you had a triangle-ish frame, right? You were also the biggest steal of the alliance selections, too....

[rsisk]

Originally Posted by squirrel

It's not likely that many judges have studied the rules...they are not the robot inspectors, after all.

This judge always did

[budly99]

Originally Posted by maltz1881

I find it odd that they are taking away creativity when there is an award for it! I personally don't see the harm in having a concave design. Where is the fun in building a box (rectangle) on wheels? Our team is known for doing things in a strange way!! We love that about us. Joe should be on the GDC because of his creative mind. He has inspired dozens of kids being a "wild and crazzzzy guy"!! The kids are bummed but we will go build a nice box on wheels!!

You start down a slippery slope if you allow "pointed" bumpers. Ramming another bot with a point wouldn't do now, would it?

[maltz1881]

Originally Posted by whackedwatchdog

You don't have to create a box. You simply have to have all external corners. A triangle is perfectly legal. A trapezoid (Wider on one side, narrowing down) is allowed. There are a number of shapes that are perfectly legal that don't break any rules. Obviously, I'm not a part of the GDC, I have no bearing on the rules, but I imagine that the idea is to reduce the risk of entanglement and to ensure that things aren't going to be as easy to break.

Easy to break? So not true. I can build my V but not have it part of the frame or in start up. I can run all over the place with it sticking out, mind you that would be dumb of me but I can still do it. When the match starts up I could have it come out as long as I am within there specs.

I remember the T bot. I went to Ann Arbor to watch the game. It was pretty cool!!

[budly99]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

You got an award for blatantly breaking a rule?

I understand it's by no means your fault, and you obviously didn't mean to, but how could that happen in FIRST?

The same way teams get rewarded after posting how they design their robot, send the plans to their sponsor, and recieve a kit back with all the parts cut, brackets bent and metal skins laser cut. A simple bolt together and they are hard to compete with.

[EricH]

Deleted--double post

[EricH]

Originally Posted by budly99

The same way teams get rewarded after posting how they design their robot, send the plans to their sponsor, and recieve a kit back with all the parts cut, brackets bent and metal skins laser cut. A simple bolt together and they are hard to compete with.

There is NO RULE saying that that is illegal. If that is how the team chooses to conduct their design and build, that is their business. I don't know of a single team that does that, BTW. The bumper rules are clear-cut (or mostly so, with some recurring "is this legal" Q&A questions that are typically answered quickly and clearly).

squirrel, one of the judges at Arizona last year was doing inspections on Thursday. Just for reference...

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by budly99

The same way teams get rewarded after posting how they design their robot, send the plans to their sponsor, and recieve a kit back with all the parts cut, brackets bent and metal skins laser cut. A simple bolt together and they are hard to compete with.

You mean the robot that they put in hundreds of hours prototyping, designing, and entering into CAD in meticulous detail? Some teams emphasize the physical shop work of putting a robot together, but it is by no means a requirement of the competition. The process these teams go through is likely far closer to an actual real life engineering process than what your team does or what mine has done in past years.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by budly99

The same way teams get rewarded after posting how they design their robot, send the plans to their sponsor, and recieve a kit back with all the parts cut, brackets bent and metal skins laser cut. A simple bolt together and they are hard to compete with.

All that design must be so easy, huh. All they have to do is make a perfect CAD model of their entire robot exactly as it will work, then they have to assemble, test, and try again if something isn't perfect.

Sounds like a walk in the park to me.

The teams you're not so subtly referencing have earned every award they've ever got - and taught their students more about engineering than a thousand lessons on how to use a mill.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by budly99

The same way teams get rewarded after posting how they design their robot, send the plans to their sponsor, and recieve a kit back with all the parts cut, brackets bent and metal skins laser cut. A simple bolt together and they are hard to compete with.

One is against the rules, the other is completely legal. Do me a favor and delete this post, we can have a little chat about this topic on Monday and if you still feel this way I will fully support you in posting this in a new thread that it is more relevant to.