Go to Post ahhhh, for the good old days, when our robots always seemed to come in well under weight instead of well over... :( . - dlavery [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Technical > Programming
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
  #91   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-04-2010, 09:42
Racer26 Racer26 is offline
Registered User
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Beaverton, ON
Posts: 2,229
Racer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: why blame the programmers??

The one I always find happens with me, is the robot code works flawlessly for 4 or 5 matches, then spontaneously STOPS working properly. I get told to check the code, and my response is invariably "code doesn't change on its own, if it worked before, then one of its inputs has changed, or ceased functioning" Its often that an encoder has died, or something along those lines.
  #92   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-04-2010, 10:55
gvarndell's Avatar
gvarndell gvarndell is offline
Software Engineer
AKA: Addi's and Georgie's Dad
FRC #1629 (GaCo)
Team Role: Parent
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Grantsville, Maryland
Posts: 350
gvarndell has a reputation beyond reputegvarndell has a reputation beyond reputegvarndell has a reputation beyond reputegvarndell has a reputation beyond reputegvarndell has a reputation beyond reputegvarndell has a reputation beyond reputegvarndell has a reputation beyond reputegvarndell has a reputation beyond reputegvarndell has a reputation beyond reputegvarndell has a reputation beyond reputegvarndell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: why blame the programmers??

Quote:
Originally Posted by krudeboy51 View Post
im wondering, if anything goes wrong with the robot why blame the programmers??(any suggestions, comments or ideas??)
If you intend to become an embedded systems software developer, then you either get really good at proving it's not the software or you're doomed to forever be a whipping post for the hardware folks.
Defensive coding and stellar debugging skills will prevent wasting years of your career in the finger pointing game and will make you quite valuable to boot.
__________________
Robots never, ever, ever, ever break -- The Robot Repairman (Backyardigans)
  #93   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-04-2010, 14:08
Racer26 Racer26 is offline
Registered User
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Beaverton, ON
Posts: 2,229
Racer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond reputeRacer26 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: why blame the programmers??

Quote:
Originally Posted by gvarndell View Post
If you intend to become an embedded systems software developer, then you either get really good at proving it's not the software or you're doomed to forever be a whipping post for the hardware folks.
Defensive coding and stellar debugging skills will prevent wasting years of your career in the finger pointing game and will make you quite valuable to boot.
QFT. I graduated my FRC team, went on to get a Bachelor of IT, and now work for a company doing PC and embedded software. I regularly get blamed when it breaks.
  #94   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-05-2010, 23:28
cheesepuffgd's Avatar
cheesepuffgd cheesepuffgd is offline
imperial majesty of all programming
FRC #0955 (raiderbot)
Team Role: Programmer
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: corvallis
Posts: 8
cheesepuffgd is an unknown quantity at this point
Smile Re: why blame the programmers??

Quote:
At least on my team, it's becuase when the programmers are testing the drive, they usually smash the robot into a wall at least 5 times.
that was one time!!!!

Last edited by cheesepuffgd : 09-05-2010 at 23:42. Reason: food
  #95   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-01-2011, 16:05
TStark115 TStark115 is offline
Registered User
FRC #3274
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Harrisonburg, VA
Posts: 1
TStark115 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: why blame the programmers??

It's not aways their fault and most of the time it's not.
  #96   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-01-2011, 16:47
billbo911's Avatar
billbo911 billbo911 is offline
I prefer you give a perfect effort.
AKA: That's "Mr. Bill"
FRC #2073 (EagleForce)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Elk Grove, Ca.
Posts: 2,367
billbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: why blame the programmers??

Why? Because as part of the mechanical team, we can't possibly blame ourselves.
__________________
CalGames 2009 Autonomous Champion Award winner
Sacramento 2010 Creativity in Design winner, Sacramento 2010 Quarter finalist
2011 Sacramento Finalist, 2011 Madtown Engineering Inspiration Award.
2012 Sacramento Semi-Finals, 2012 Sacramento Innovation in Control Award, 2012 SVR Judges Award.
2012 CalGames Autonomous Challenge Award winner ($$$).
2014 2X Rockwell Automation: Innovation in Control Award (CVR and SAC). Curie Division Gracious Professionalism Award.
2014 Capital City Classic Winner AND Runner Up. Madtown Throwdown: Runner up.
2015 Innovation in Control Award, Sacramento.
2016 Chezy Champs Finalist, 2016 MTTD Finalist
  #97   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-01-2011, 17:33
dag0620 dag0620 is offline
Because we're FiNE
AKA: David Givens
FRC #1071 (Team MAX)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Wolcott, CT
Posts: 784
dag0620 has a reputation beyond reputedag0620 has a reputation beyond reputedag0620 has a reputation beyond reputedag0620 has a reputation beyond reputedag0620 has a reputation beyond reputedag0620 has a reputation beyond reputedag0620 has a reputation beyond reputedag0620 has a reputation beyond reputedag0620 has a reputation beyond reputedag0620 has a reputation beyond reputedag0620 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: why blame the programmers??

Ohhh I was dreading the comeback of this thread!

I've come to the conclusion, it's the age old story, and every team has it, and no-one will ever win it.

But I will admit, as a programmer, we mostly do the bidding of the Design and Mech Teams. I think outside of the Control Board and Autonomous, we have no creative control.

One day the code will be written first, and then a robot built around it
__________________
David Givens
Alumnus Team Max 1071 ('13) | FIRST Volunteer | NE FIRST

Away making magic for a bit...
  #98   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-01-2011, 18:07
davidalln's Avatar
davidalln davidalln is offline
World's Worst Coder
AKA: David Allen
FRC #2415 (The Westminster Wiredcats)
Team Role: Programmer
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 108
davidalln is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to davidalln
Re: why blame the programmers??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Y. View Post
from a mentors point of view:

(WARNING...im a mechanical type of guy)

we usually hated on electrical...until we found out they could put pretty lights that flash on our robot...so now programmers are to blame for all things.
Your programmer made those pretty light pulsate over time during the match. Continue blaming electrical.
__________________
SANTOSH ANDREW DECKER RICK WYNNIE SEAN DEREK MATT
(alamo (semis), p'tree (CHAMPS!), nc (CHAMPS!), newton (quarters))


Best four years of my life. Thanks to everyone who made it happen.
  #99   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-01-2011, 19:42
PAR_WIG1350's Avatar
PAR_WIG1350 PAR_WIG1350 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Alan Wells
FRC #1350 (Rambots)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 1,189
PAR_WIG1350 has a reputation beyond reputePAR_WIG1350 has a reputation beyond reputePAR_WIG1350 has a reputation beyond reputePAR_WIG1350 has a reputation beyond reputePAR_WIG1350 has a reputation beyond reputePAR_WIG1350 has a reputation beyond reputePAR_WIG1350 has a reputation beyond reputePAR_WIG1350 has a reputation beyond reputePAR_WIG1350 has a reputation beyond reputePAR_WIG1350 has a reputation beyond reputePAR_WIG1350 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: why blame the programmers??

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidalln View Post
Your programmer made those pretty light pulsate over time during the match. Continue blaming electrical.
Unless a 555 was involved. But honestly, I find that problems are evenly distributed throughout the robot. However, Magic smoke, the smell of melting stuff, a chain that has come off its sprocket, and binding gears are really obvious. A sign error, or a missing increment/decrement operator, on the other hand, can be difficult to track down, and those are just simple, easily solved problems. more complex errors, such as accidentally causing a function to fail to execute by making the conditions it would normally execute under impossible (such as
Code:
void myfunction (void)
int main()
{
     int nvar=0;
     if nvar>1
     {  
         myfunction ();
         nvar=0;
      }
      else 
      {
      }
      //...
}
and elsewhere you had a function in which an error increments nvar by 1 such that every 2nd error triggers myfunction, but you removed that section of the code, now whatever crucial task myfunction does to fix the error never occurs, and the errors just continue on to oblivion. But just by looking at the code, it would be hard to diagnose that.

Thus, the programmer's aren't blamed more often, they just have to do more work to find the problem before thy can even begin to fix it, thus it seems like they are always getting asked to fix things, since they are always working.
__________________
  #100   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-01-2011, 20:05
davidthefat davidthefat is offline
Alumni
AKA: David Yoon
FRC #0589 (Falkons)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: California
Posts: 792
davidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud of
Re: why blame the programmers??

Honestly, it only takes one integer or one symbol to make your robot go hay wire. But that only takes a second to fix. If it is mechanical failure, it is harder to fix. So people are being optimistic and blaming the one that is easier to fix. That is what I have learned from my experiences in the club.
__________________
Do not say what can or cannot be done, but, instead, say what must be done for the task at hand must be accomplished.
  #101   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-01-2011, 20:13
Joe G.'s Avatar
Joe G. Joe G. is offline
Taking a few years (mostly) off
AKA: Josepher
no team (Formerly 1687, 5400)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Worcester, MA
Posts: 1,451
Joe G. has a reputation beyond reputeJoe G. has a reputation beyond reputeJoe G. has a reputation beyond reputeJoe G. has a reputation beyond reputeJoe G. has a reputation beyond reputeJoe G. has a reputation beyond reputeJoe G. has a reputation beyond reputeJoe G. has a reputation beyond reputeJoe G. has a reputation beyond reputeJoe G. has a reputation beyond reputeJoe G. has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Joe G.
Re: why blame the programmers??

People blame what they don't understand.

-Mechanical..although it takes time to master it, most people understand at least the very basics.

-Electrical..a little more mysterious, but still, most people have some basic grasp.

-Software..people seem to either get it, or think of it as black-magic that goes on deep within the cRIO.

-As can be seen through the Salem witch trials and other historical examples, people like to take the easy way out and blame black magic for their problems
__________________
FIRST is not about doing what you can with what you know. It is about doing what you thought impossible, with what you were inspired to become.

2007-2010: Student, FRC 1687, Highlander Robotics
2012-2014: Technical Mentor, FRC 1687, Highlander Robotics
2015-2016: Lead Mentor, FRC 5400, Team WARP
2016-???: Volunteer and freelance mentor-for-hire
  #102   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-01-2011, 20:23
plnyyanks's Avatar
plnyyanks plnyyanks is offline
Data wins arguments.
AKA: Phil Lopreiato
FRC #1124 (The ÜberBots), FRC #2900 (The Mighty Penguins)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: NYC/Washington, DC
Posts: 1,114
plnyyanks has a reputation beyond reputeplnyyanks has a reputation beyond reputeplnyyanks has a reputation beyond reputeplnyyanks has a reputation beyond reputeplnyyanks has a reputation beyond reputeplnyyanks has a reputation beyond reputeplnyyanks has a reputation beyond reputeplnyyanks has a reputation beyond reputeplnyyanks has a reputation beyond reputeplnyyanks has a reputation beyond reputeplnyyanks has a reputation beyond repute
Re: why blame the programmers??

you don't. it's not their fault. it's mechanical's fault.
__________________
Phil Lopreiato - "It's a hardware problem"
Team 1124 (2010 - 2013), Team 1418 (2014), Team 2900 (2016)
FRC Notebook The Blue Alliance for Android
  #103   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-01-2011, 20:36
MAldridge's Avatar
MAldridge MAldridge is offline
Lead Programmer
AKA: Rube #1
FRC #0418 (LASA Robotics)
Team Role: Programmer
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Austin
Posts: 117
MAldridge will become famous soon enoughMAldridge will become famous soon enough
Re: why blame the programmers??

The programers usually get blamed for several reasons:
  • There's only one programmer on the team
  • Not even the mentors understand what goes on in the programers head
  • The programer codes the robot as if they're driving

I remember on specific instance during breakaway that our ball magnet was causing balls to be sucked under the robot. When the drive asked me how to stop the motor on the ball magnet (I was the spotter) I quickly told him to toggle the left throttle and hold buttons 4, 5, 6, and 12 for at least one second. It made sense to me at the time I programed it!
  #104   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-01-2011, 20:43
demosthenes2k8's Avatar
demosthenes2k8 demosthenes2k8 is offline
Graduated but not gone
AKA: Matt Soucy
FRC #0166 (Chop Shop 166)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Merrimack, NH
Posts: 589
demosthenes2k8 is a splendid one to beholddemosthenes2k8 is a splendid one to beholddemosthenes2k8 is a splendid one to beholddemosthenes2k8 is a splendid one to beholddemosthenes2k8 is a splendid one to beholddemosthenes2k8 is a splendid one to beholddemosthenes2k8 is a splendid one to beholddemosthenes2k8 is a splendid one to behold
Send a message via AIM to demosthenes2k8 Send a message via Yahoo to demosthenes2k8
Re: why blame the programmers??

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAldridge View Post
I remember on specific instance during breakaway that our ball magnet was causing balls to be sucked under the robot. When the drive asked me how to stop the motor on the ball magnet (I was the spotter) I quickly told him to toggle the left throttle and hold buttons 4, 5, 6, and 12 for at least one second. It made sense to me at the time I programed it!
OK, this is amazing. We plan on having our Drive team be all software this year, so we can be like "BAM! This happened." and the pit crew can't protest.
__________________


GSR Dean's List Finalist 2011
  #105   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-01-2011, 21:22
MagiChau's Avatar
MagiChau MagiChau is offline
Registered User
AKA: Michael Chau
FRC #0085 (B.O.B. (Built on Brains))
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Zeeland, Michigan
Posts: 875
MagiChau is just really niceMagiChau is just really niceMagiChau is just really niceMagiChau is just really nice
Re: why blame the programmers??

Over here we like to keep trying to improve our code. It sometimes involved changing what button did what.

An alumni last year placed a spray painted plate of aluminum on the driver station and had scratched in an operations manual. One of its directions was to ask programmers how we had set up the controls this time.

This year we should have enough programmers so there will always be someone available to explain to someone else on the team what we did.

Those mechanical guys blaming programming, they are just playing hard to get. They know they love how we type in stuff and then stuff happens, or break.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Improving the experience of programmers and the effectiveness of code kamocat Programming 18 25-12-2009 08:33
Placing Blame ExarKun666 Chit-Chat 17 24-04-2008 18:24
Who to blame for the creation of the Trackball. Chuck Glick General Forum 7 12-01-2008 22:35
I blame robotics for... JBotAlan Games/Trivia 12 05-12-2007 00:30
blame it on the doggy robot Andrew Rudolph Chit-Chat 0 26-10-2003 13:02


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 23:21.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi