Entanglement at Bash

[Rick]

On saturday 24 teams came to East Lyme to compete in the last northeast competition this year. Keep in mind that all goal entanglement was allowed as long as it did not lift the goal.

During match 23, teams 121 and 195 faced off against 173 and 263LX. The match was sure to be a great one considering how crazy good that old 263LX was at defense. We got a lot of new dents to our bot in that match.

Anyways, about a minute into the match, 173 had one goal in scoring postition and decided to launch there tether now. Upon realizing this we, 121, got in the way of the tape measure to block it from getting to there home zone. It worked and the tape measure was retracted.

Then the tape measure was launched again and we got in the way. Except this time it broke and got caught inside our robot. Back in the player station we had no clue what was going on. It only looked as though the tape measure was moved off to one side. But then we also realized we could not move like normal.

We wanted to get to our home zone after realizing we had some unknown problems. The robot was pulling to one side and it was not until we were in the second/middle zone that we saw the paper hand of the tape measure. The match ended and we lost.

Upon inspecting the robot immedietly afterwards we noticed that a lot of tape measure was wrapped around our axle (after removing it we found 43 inches of it). Our team asked the refs to look at the damage and see that it was an obvious form of entagnlement.

While allowing the refs to inspect, team members from RAGE came literally yelling that it was our intent to destroy the tape measure and purposely get entangled. The refs were sick of hearing the arguments and went to discuss it.

At no time did I see any rulebook being used. The head ref at the time also told us we could not have a robot whose controls were on the outside start in the middle. An obvious newcomer to reffing.

When we look at the rules we see that it does not matter the intent of the team, what matters is part of a robot got entangled in another and this was due to that teams use of the robot.

Here is the rules excerpt:
ON TETHERED / EXTENDED OBJECTS BEING AN ENTANGLEMENT RISK The TIMING of the release of a mechanism IS NOT CONSIDERED when evaluating its risk of entanglement because the actions of other robots and position of the goals on the field cannot be predicted with certainty. Even if you only release the mechanism in the last few seconds of the match, if it presents an entanglementrisk, it will be evaluated that way. When designing your robot, please consider the environment on the playing field during a match and use your common wisdom to evaluate the likelihood of your mechanism getting wrapped around an axle, caught on a bolt or arm or other robot feature, or even hung up on part of a goal. Tape measure tape, while less likely to be caught on a sharp edge than an piece of string, is still a relatively flexible material when used in long lengths, and might easily be run over and snagged by another robot or a goal that is being moved.

So with all this we have the strongest evidence that you the Chief Delphi reader can use: A picture

This is not a post to make people mad. I just want to know opinions. The match is over and done with.

[Rob Colatutto]

considering that pulling up a nice corner of the carpet didn't get you disqualified.... there is no way that this tape measure issue should have been a dq

[RBrandy]

Originally posted by Ricksta121
...use your common wisdom to evaluate the likelihood of your mechanism getting wrapped around an axle, caught on a... Tape measure tape, while less likely to be caught on a sharp edge than an piece of string, is still a relatively flexible material when used in long lengths, and might easily be run over and snagged by another robot or a goal that is being moved.

The fact that this is in the FIRST rule book they should have got a DQ.

Originally posted by Nataku
considering that pulling up a nice corner of the carpet didn't get you disqualified....

But this should have made it a Double DQ (0 points to both alliances)

Thats just my opinion

[Rick]

the carpet was pulled up in another match. the field was nice but not to sturdy. were were getting pinned and were trying to move. part of the was pulled up on accident and if we could have seen the damage happening we would have stopped trying to move.

[RBrandy]

O sorry the way I read the 2 posts I thought it was the same match... Then you should have won the match.

[Jeff Rodriguez]

Then the tape measure was launched again and we got in the way. Except this time it broke and got caught inside our robot. Back in the player station we had no clue what was going on. It only looked as though the tape measure was moved off to one side. But then we also realized we could not move like normal.

We wanted to get to our home zone after realizing we had some unknown problems. The robot was pulling to one side and it was not until we were in the second/middle zone that we saw the paper hand of the tape measure. The match ended and we lost.

Upon inspecting the robot immedietly afterwards we noticed that a lot of tape measure was wrapped around our axle (after removing it we found 43 inches of it). Our team asked the refs to look at the damage and see that it was an obvious form of entagnlement.

Here is the rules excerpt:
ON TETHERED / EXTENDED OBJECTS BEING AN ENTANGLEMENT RISK The TIMING of the release of a mechanism IS NOT CONSIDERED when evaluating its risk of entanglement because the actions of other robots and position of the goals on the field cannot be predicted with certainty. Even if you only release the mechanism in the last few seconds of the match, if it presents an entanglementrisk, it will be evaluated that way. When designing your robot, please consider the environment on the playing field during a match and use your common wisdom to evaluate the likelihood of your mechanism getting wrapped around an axle, caught on a bolt or arm or other robot feature, or even hung up on part of a goal. Tape measure tape, while less likely to be caught on a sharp edge than an piece of string, is still a relatively flexible material when used in long lengths, and might easily be run over and snagged by another robot or a goal that is being moved.

So with all this we have the strongest evidence that you the Chief Delphi reader can use: A picture

This is not a post to make people mad. I just want to know opinions. The match is over and done with. [/b]

The hand is not paper, its poly-carb.

If it was entaglement, than the refs at natioanls (experienced ones) would have called it that and DQ'ed us. Obviously, they didn't, therefore it is not entaglement.

Many robots have run over the taper measure with no prblem at all. You must have been doing something to kick it up into your axels. Driving over it does not hinder any robot.

Whos cares? It was at Bash which means nothing in the long run. plaese stop trying to start arguments.

[Kyle Fenton]

Originally posted by Nataku
considering that pulling up a nice corner of the carpet didn't get you disqualified.... there is no way that this tape measure issue should have been a dq

That was a separate match, and basically the carpet bunched up because the field was really loose, and nothing was anchored down. The coaches were using their feet to hold the side barriers in place.

[RBrandy]

Looking at the pic Im wondering how that ISNT entanglement?

Im not trying to start an argument but im confused on this.

[Tom Schindler]

Just another pic of Rage's hand in 121's bot

[Joel J]

This question/accusation/whatever walks a fine line. Ever since someone exploited the loophole in the rules to make tethers possible, alot of controversy has surrounded it. FIRST tried their best to formulate an addendum to the rules that would best prevent a team from purposely using their tether to hinder their opponents from scoring. FIRST was somewhat successful; however, due to the variations in the treatment of tethers at the regionals, it was very hard for them to find a common ground.

In the match you speak of, I was driving. Here is how it went down from my end of the field.

---
When I saw you guys approach our robot, I knew you were either going to attempt to take our goal, or block the tether. As you approached, your goal grabber was pointed away from our goal and your robot was aligning itself perpendicular to ours, leading me to believe that you were about to prevent us from deploying our tether. With this in mind, I knew I had to release the tether then (something I normally don't do).

I released the tether and it made it to the edge of the no-score zone before your robot reached us and got in front of the tether. As quickly as my reflexes allowed, I retracted the tether because I didn't want it to be broken. It was at this point that things got blurry.

I turned the robot slightly and released the tether again. However, as soon as I released it your robot came screaming back and stopped right on top of the tether. Once again, the tether hadn't made it very far. My first instinct was to once again retract the tether, but I realized that it was under your wheel, so I didn't. Your robot kept going back and forth over the tether, as though it were going somewhere, spun around and left. As you left, I noticed that our tether didn't have a hand. I didn't think much about it, except it took a real stretch to get the tether to our endzone.

At the end of the match I see the referees and some students standing around 121's robot. Jason told me that they were trying to get us DQ'ed, so I obviously ran (walked briskly, whatever) over there. When I reached the "hot zone," however, I decided to not get caught up in the debate and opted to say my peace to Brian, a 173 alumni.

When we were allowed to clear the field, I remember saying something to a non-ricksta stage crew member wearing glasses (best description, since I don't know the name). He basically said to me what you are saying now.
---

In trying to prevent our tether from reaching the endzone, your robot kept going back and forth. This motion was similar to ones done at regionals in an attempt to become entangled in the other party's tether (to cause a DQ). You did just that.

Rather than go on further, I am going to bed. If someone feels that this topic is worth stress, they can post a video of the incident and more light will be shed on the issue than this current heresay.

People can twist facts to make them adhere to one rule, or break another. We all know what happened up there, but since one team lost, it is only natural that they would attempt to use some means to turn it into a win. I am almost positive that if you had won that match, you wouldn't have posted today.. unless you were greedy for QP, which I doubt.

[ColleenShaver]

Seeing the match, how it all went down, and the results afterwards.. there's no way it wasn't entanglement. I was even conversing with one of the ref's after it happened. It's the way the head ref made the call. But I will say, it undoubtably deserved a rematch if they were unwilling to DQ an alliance. After all, the tether rule does not determine "intent". Our tether has been run over, had figure-8's pulled over and was even sucked up and dragged around. No DQ deserved though, cause that's legal (and we never entangled).

As for the carpet pulling up, I've gotta agree with 121 it was down very well. The carpet in the middle of the field got bunched up quite well on a couple of occasions when people hit us and our anchors were down. If you looked at the carpet at the beginning of the competition, you could have seen that in several places the carpet didn't even go under the players station (which is the weighest part of the field and helps greatly to hold the carpet down). There would be no valid reason to call 121 on that. Bash provided a quality carpet that just needed to be a few inches longer, but we make due with what we've got.

All that said... can we drop it? I'm not one usually to jump in on these posts, and my opinion surely isn't definitive.. but there isn't even a precedent to be set for future off-season competitions, because they are done (as far as I know). I think FIRST, and all of us, know that there were some mishandlings of the tether rule, which they will do their best to avoid next year.

You won 121. You built an excellent robot, you played well, and you deserved it. We've all had our share of unfair calls that went against (and in) our favor.. but the season's over, let's let it go! We've got a new game to get psyched for.

(And a disclaimer to everyone on 121 that isn't Ricksta... I know he's not always representative of your opinion, but he wears your shirt just as proud as you, and sometimes it's even hard for me to differentiate the opinion... so don't be offended that I refer to your team.. you know we're fans of your team)

[Mike Schroeder]

While allowing the refs to inspect, team members from RAGE came literally yelling that it was our intent to destroy the tape measure and purposely get entangled. The refs were sick of hearing the arguments and went to discuss it.

1st thing loved your robot rick

2nd thing at rutgers in one of our matches we ran into a problem like yours only we were on the opposite side.

don't remember #'s but toward the end of the match we lauched the "mini-me" and in retrospect we did it to early but one of our opponents drove by and decided to get our tether our of scoring position. it didnt work so they decide to do a happy dance on it

now after the match, just to make matters clear I nicely walked up to a judge to point out that that can be construded (sp?) as Malicious(sp?) intent, but in my defense when i looked at the drive team they were point in and laughing as they "Happy Danced" all over our "Mini-Me"

I some cases yes you shoot it you better be able to prtect it that is why in cases where they are flimsy peices of paper or whatever it is they should be disqualified for entanglement

We still won the match though

that is just my handful of change

[Sean_330]

I was not there at the competetion in question. BUT i have refereed 4 off season events (2 SCRRF, 1 WRRF, and 1 IRI) and had to make some pretty tough calls (I was head ref at both SCRRF). I am not gonna say how i would have called it because I was not there and do not know all the facts and therefore can not reach an informed decision. HOWEVER, there are several important things to remember here:


1 The Referees are human beings too: That is a fact of life. This is coming from a referee. I admit that I am human and I make mistakes. We ALL can and do make mistakes. The disappointing thing to all referees is when people then go behind our back and whine about our calls on places like CD where the complaint is out for the public to see regardless of whether our call was right. Often times the facts are not presented in an unbiased manner. It undermines the authority and respect that the referees should have. Referees are volunteer meaning they are unpaid. They try their hardest and try to be fair in all their dealings.

2 The referees have a tough job: It is tough to make a call that no matter how you decide, one side is probably going to be angry at you. Calling a couple of entanglement DQs at SCRRF was harder than almost anything I have done in my life. I am sure the referees tried to make a fair, informed, unbiased call. However, no matter how fair that call is, one of the two teams is not going to be happy with the call and there will probably be backlash. Even though they know all this, the referees still willingly volunteer their time to help make a difference.

3 While a single photograph may be enough evidence to prove enganglement in the court of public opinion, there is often more to a story than meets eye. While the picture appears to show entanglement, the referees had to consider the purpose of the other team. No matter what it looks like, there is always the possibility that the team tried to become entangled. that question along with many others is always in the referees minds when they make a call.

4 Without referees, FIRST would not be what it is. If there were no referees, FIRST would become like *gasp* Battle Bots. While the referees may not call much, they still protect the teams from an undesirable, un professional, violent aspect of the game.


So in the end, the issue seems to be not whether entanglement occurred. Instead the issue becomes whether there was enough respect shown to the referees and whether debating a call after the fact in a public forum is indeed what Woody and Dean mean by gracious professionalism?

[Rob Colatutto]

121, you say you were pinned up against the wall, and thats why the carpet was comming up, but in order for that to have happened the way it looks, you must have been going backwards...

[Rick]

The reason I posted was because I've seen a bunch or robot-goal entanglement during the season. I've never seen a robot-robot entanglement. For the second time, I know its over and there is no hard feelings. I have tried to start not an argument, but a post to discuss. I had no idea what it looked like on the other station, but from Joel j's post now I do.