Whats wrong with the FTC KoP

[blackiceskier]

OK, I have the advantage of seeing both small robot platforms at their best. Both the FTC with their higher end parts where they are more structurally sound and the challenges that have always been well... challenging. As well as VEX that keeps prices down because they are in it for both the business side of it as well as spreading the STEM mind set. So I guess my real question is..


What is every one getting so worked up with the MINIBOT ruling that only the Tetrix kit is allowed. The Tetrix motors are much better than the "high strengths" that VEX has will ever be. Even though they can very well support a robot hanging from ~20 inches.

Please refrain from the whole political part of this argument because that's not what I'm wondering at all. Just to throw this in I was part of a FTC team when tetrix was first used and now I'm a head ref in New Jersey for VEX

[Justin Montois]

Originally Posted by blackiceskier

What is every one getting so worked up with the MINIBOT ruling that only the Tetrix kit is allowed......

I understand you don't want a political argument in this thread. You can just skip to the last paragraph if that's the case.

In a nutshell...FIRST used to support VEX. They switched to FTC. Some teams stayed with VEX and have continued to amass large quantities of VEX parts. FIRST came out with a challenge and outlawed VEX parts almost specifically. Forcing those teams to attain FTC parts that they would otherwise never have the need for.

They wanted the motors to be the same across the board. That I understand and appreciate. They wanted the battery the same across the board. That I appreciate. They both should have been included in the FRC kit of parts and the rest of the rules should have been relaxed. It shouldn't matter one bit if I use VEX frame for my minibot and you custom make them out of aluminum and the team down the road used Tetrix. VEX chain, gears and sprockets should be able to be used side by side with FTC aluminum channel.

To further respond to your post, the Tetrix Vs VEX debate among some people may be like arguing Ford vs Chevy, bottom line is you as a consumer have the right to decide for yourself which brand to buy. No one is making Chevy only roads...

[Duncan Macdonald]

Originally Posted by blackiceskier

OK, I have the advantage of seeing both small robot platforms at their best. Both the FTC with their higher end parts where they are more structurally sound and the challenges that have always been well... challenging. As well as VEX that keeps prices down because they are in it for both the business side of it as well as spreading the STEM mind set. So I guess my real question is..


What is every one getting so worked up with the MINIBOT ruling that only the Tetrix kit is allowed. The Tetrix motors are much better than the "high strengths" that VEX has will ever be. Even though they can very well support a robot hanging from ~20 inches.

Please refrain from the whole political part of this argument because that's not what I'm wondering at all. Just to throw this in I was part of a FTC team when tetrix was first used and now I'm a head ref in New Jersey for VEX

*emphasis mine

So far I haven't been impressed by the Tetrix motors at all. While the specs may look better so far we have burned out two motors in prototyping and at approximately $35 a piece it's been discouraging. I don't see why FIRST cant do what they have done with the pneumatic parts and say "you can use any motor that does not exceed these specifications".


*Side note: I'd be interested in seeing a CD tally for burned out motors.

[Akash Rastogi]

Pretty much completely agree with what what Duncan pointed out.

[Mike8519]

Originally Posted by Duncan Macdonald

*emphasis mine

So far I haven't been impressed by the Tetrix motors at all. While the specs may look better so far we have burned out two motors in prototyping and at approximately $35 a piece it's been discouraging. I don't see why FIRST cant do what they have done with the pneumatic parts and say "you can use any motor that does not exceed these specifications".


*Side note: I'd be interested in seeing a CD tally for burned out motors.

+1 fried motor here

[wilsonmw04]

I have had experience with both VRC and FTC. Have dealt with shattered plastic gears, thin aluminum parts that bent too easily, and limited servo styled motors before we learned to build with the system. I have also dealt with frying a motor or two during "Hot Shot" and the agony of finding a good way of mating LEGO pieces to metal.

Is it the equipments fault for failing or is it the builder's fault for not understanding the limitation of the equipment? It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools.

Which is better? heck, if I know. We stayed with FTC because I saw FIRST as, primarily, a character building program for my kids. I didn't know what VEX stood for at the time except for STEM development.

[LLogan]

The octagonal bolting pattern is a lot less intuitive than Vex's bolting pattern. Nothing ever "matched up" like it does in Vex. At least, not for us.

The mating of Lego with Tetrix is absolutely awful. Maybe they've changed things in two years (we discontinued working with Tetrix after its inaugural year and switched to VRC), but I remember there was never a REAL Lego motor mounting bracket onto the Tetrix parts.

The motors burn out very easily. They are not user-serviceable like Vex Motors (usually Vex motor failure is caused by the internal gears only, we can just swap those out without problems and we have a working motor again.) The little clip mounts for the motors snap off very easily. There is no way to put it back on without soldering it, and that's against the rules.

The servo mounting brackets were terrible. I think two or three of our FTC servos are unusable only because the mounting screw on the bracket is stripped and because there is no way to get it off.

Everything is expensive. A single 80 tooth gear is 20 dollars. A Vex gear kit with 2x 84tooth, 4x 60tooth, 4x 36tooth, and 4x 12tooth is 13 dollars. Of course, they are aluminum versus plastic gears... but in such small applications, metal gears are not always warranted or necessary.

Anyways, I could really go on. And on. And on and on. But you get the point.

[Garret]

Well in the case of my team this adds additional cost that could have and should have been avoided. If FIRST is requiring some teams to buy the same parts while others who have FTC teams don't have to, inorder to compete in this years game then this minibot competition is not fair at all. There are no FTC teams associated with my team or even in our area, meaning we have to buy the parts, and well frankly we think we support FIRST enough with our FLL programs, I don't see a need for us to invest in FTC just so FIRST can promote its own program, they should at least allow them to use VEX or be a little less restrictive, cause I mean seriously they are basically saying teams that have FTC counterparts are getting a bonus, where as teams with Vex counterparts or that run lego teams, are at a significant disadvantage, and not to mention the fact that the parts are expensive.
I am frankly afraid to use anything other than Tectrix, because I don't know if they will make rules against using non-tectrix parts.
I apologize for the rant but I am frankly frustrated that they are forcing FTC upon FIRST teams if they want to be competitive, and because of the restrictions imposed its pretty obvious that this is simply to promote FTC. But that's how I see it.... Again sorry for the rant.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Garret

Well in the case of my team this adds additional cost that could have and should have been avoided. If FIRST is requiring us to buy parts to compete in this years game then this minibot competition is not fair at all. There are no FTC teams associated with my team or even in our area, meaning we have to buy the parts, and well frankly we think we support FIRST enough with our FLL programs, I don't see a need for us to invest in FTC just so FIRST can promote its own program, they should at least allow them to use VEX or be a little less restrictive, cause I mean seriously they are basically saying teams that have FTC counterparts are getting a bonus, where as teams with Vex counterparts or that run lego teams, are at a significant disadvantage, and not to mention the fact that the parts are expensive.
I am frankly afraid to use anything other than Tectrix, because I don't know if they will make rules against using non-tectrix parts.
I apologize for the rant but I am frankly frustrated that they are forcing FTC upon FIRST teams if they want to be competitive, and because of the restrictions imposed its pretty obvious that this is simply to promote FTC. But that's how I see it.... Again sorry for the rant.

Not using components out of fear that they will change the rules is an artificial wall you are creating for yourself and your team.

In addition, FIRST made it clear that you could receive a brand new FTC Tetrix kit for free through FIRST choice. There is no additional cost to teams.

In addition, every year FIRST has a new 'end game'. Whether it be the '10 lift, or the '07 ramp, those end games sometimes require special mechanisms to compete. Those always cost money as well.

I don't particularly like the legal-parts rules. Teams that have the ability to burn or make gears out of aluminum are going to have a small advantage because of the total lack of textrix gear ratios. Once our team decides on the final gear ratio I'm going to go on a search of local suppliers who can burn or hobb said gears out of base materials. If I was able to /purchase/ those gears, I'd be much happier, but it's not a hurdle I can't overcome.

[Garret]

We aren't planning on not using them, our current design uses non textrix parts, I am just afraid that they will change the rules again, and we will have to redesign.

And yes we got that free kit, but what if we want a second minibot or want to prototype, the kit doesn't come with motor controllers, or break some of the few parts that were in the kit. I mean seriously this is more just a boost for textrix, but yeah.

In addition, every year FIRST has a new 'end game'. Whether it be the '10 lift, or the '07 ramp, those end games sometimes require special mechanisms to compete. Those always cost money as well.

Those endgame parts, though requiring us to "buy materials" require everyone to buy materials, but not materials from a of a specific brand. It would be like saying that you could only make your hangers last year by using a winch. But in this case they being overly restrictive, imagine if hanging last year prohibited use of stored energy from anything other than the battery supplied during the finale period. What if they said that you had to only use one type of material to build your ramps in 2007. There wouldn't have been as much variety, and the game would have lost a lot of its inspirational aspect, at least in my opinion it would be less inspiring.

Just saying....

[gblake]

Is this really a useful conversation?

[PAR_WIG1350]

1350 has had no issues with Tetrix motors themselves so far. For the 2009-2010 FTC game we had 2 of them geared to ridiculously high speeds (to launch balls into the off field goals), and the gearhead failed on one, while the motor survived. The second one survived in its entirety. Tetrix motors can be sensitive to gearing, an intermittent load such as a ball shooter can be geared fairly high. However, for a drive mechanism, gearing up should be kept to a minimum and the load should be minimized (at 1:1 or lower gearing, on a horizontal surface, load doesn't matter quite as much). That being said, the tetrix motor can be impressive if they like the conditions in which they are operated.

[Techhexium]

1) Yeah I don't like the Tetrix servos either. Last year my team ruined a few servos because they tried to make it go 360°, but they broke the mechanical stop.

2) Yes Tetrix parts are expensive, but if you have contact with an FTC team, you can have them buy Tetrix parts for you at a 30% discount here:

http://parts.ftcrobots.com

(Discount only applies to FTC teams)

[Duncan Macdonald]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

I have had experience with both VRC and FTC. Have dealt with shattered plastic gears, thin aluminum parts that bent too easily, and limited servo styled motors before we learned to build with the system. I have also dealt with frying a motor or two during "Hot Shot" and the agony of finding a good way of mating LEGO pieces to metal.

Is it the equipments fault for failing or is it the builder's fault for not understanding the limitation of the equipment? It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools.

Which is better? heck, if I know. We stayed with FTC because I saw FIRST as, primarily, a character building program for my kids. I didn't know what VEX stood for at the time except for STEM development.

* emphasis mine

I'm going to disagree with this. Correct me if I'm wrong but FTC components are designed to be an Educational system. When I went through tech class in high school I stalled a motor occasionally and the kids who didn't do calculations stalled more than that.
If I were a teacher with a room full of students I would not be mentally stable basing the program on the Tetrix system. At least there could be a replaceable clutch on these motors (similar to this) and make two dollar mistakes instead of 30.
It is a poor designer who blames his users.

I'm curious, now that VEX has had a couple years do you see a difference in the character between VEX and Tetrix?