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Unread 22-01-2011, 22:57
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Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal

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Originally Posted by GaryVoshol View Post
I concur, you cannot have a gap in your true BUMPERS for the outrigger support to come down.

And what's up with a 3-noodle bumper?
We figured we could use a 1x8” piece of wood and get 3 noodles on it to cover all of our major metal. After all of the comments about ramming we got scared that we should be really well protected.

We downsides to a 1X7” piece of wood to get the minimum 6 in of bumper needed to have a two 2.5” noodles on it.
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Unread 22-01-2011, 23:18
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Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal

I think y'all need to re-read <R07>. The 6" minimum is length per segment (<R07-D>); the maximum of that dimension is as long as the robot. You need a 3/4" thick x 5" tall piece of plywood as bumper backing (<R07-F>).

I'd also be cautious about the plywood in the corners--because you're changing segments, you may run afoul of <R07-C>'s corner/segment joint-filling rules. In the past, it's been much clearer about whether or not hard parts in corners is prohibited (it was in the past, not sure about this year).

Note that these only apply to the bumpers that are out in the Starting Configuration. Ditto for the extra bumper weight allowance.
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Unread 22-01-2011, 23:41
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Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
I think y'all need to re-read <R07>. The 6" minimum is length per segment (<R07-D>); the maximum of that dimension is as long as the robot. You need a 3/4" thick x 5" tall piece of plywood as bumper backing (<R07-F>).

I'd also be cautious about the plywood in the corners--because you're changing segments, you may run afoul of <R07-C>'s corner/segment joint-filling rules. In the past, it's been much clearer about whether or not hard parts in corners is prohibited (it was in the past, not sure about this year).

Note that these only apply to the bumpers that are out in the Starting Configuration. Ditto for the extra bumper weight allowance.
If we need bumpers from 1” to 7” that means we need a 6 “ piece of wood. A 1x7” piece of board is 6.25” high so we were going to cut that to length instead of cutting plywood by length and width.

Our bumper design is single pieces per side. So we shouldn’t have an issue with the minimum length.

In the corners are we only supposed to have wood adjacent to metal? Meaning we would have a gap in the backing of the noodles?
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Unread 22-01-2011, 23:45
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Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal

The bumper rules are certainly extensive! Most of the bumper construction is set out in the rules... There is also a required "bumper zone" so that all teams have their bumper at the same level, making tall bumpers less necessary. The bumper zone is 1"-7" from the ground... so the bumpers (which have to be 5" tall) have 1" of leeway. It's hard to tell, but using the 8" wheels as a reference, I'd estimate your bumpers may be too high for the bumper zone... maybe the plywood is just the wrong height though?

Yes, the wood should only be directly backed by metal - if the sides of your robot are 27" and 37", the wood should be a 3/4" thick piece of plywood with dimensions of 5" tall and either 27" or 37" in length. It's also required to protect the corners, a good way of doing this is putting a 5" long piece of pool noodle inside the fabric of the bumpers at the corners. We normally put this vertical 5" long noodle on the ends of the 27" long segments, but it doesn't matter where they go. :-)

I'm certainly impressed with the time/energy and CAD going into this from a rookie team... I really wish we competed at the same regional - maybe championships! ;-)
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Last edited by Nathan Streeter : 22-01-2011 at 23:51. Reason: Adding some to the post...
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Unread 23-01-2011, 01:16
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Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
You need a 3/4" thick x 5" tall piece of plywood as bumper backing (<R07-F>).
Quoting for emphasis and great justice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
I'd also be cautious about the plywood in the corners--because you're changing segments, you may run afoul of <R07-C>'s corner/segment joint-filling rules. In the past, it's been much clearer about whether or not hard parts in corners is prohibited (it was in the past, not sure about this year).
Some years it was allowed, some years it wasn't. It's been quite inconsistent historically.

This year, a fully overlapped 90° corner with 0.750 in plywood would have a dimension of approximately 1.060 in between the outermost extent of the "hard part" of the bumper (the plywood corner) and the corner of the frame perimeter. That violates <R07L>, which stipulates a maximum of 1 in.

What makes this really insidious is that not every corner that overlaps would run afoul of this rule. Other angles or incomplete overlap might still satisfy <R07L>.
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Unread 23-01-2011, 06:03
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Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal

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Originally Posted by staplemonx View Post
He he

Yes I meant to say diameter

Here is a reduced weight configuration we updated per the comments. We removed almost 20lbs. We also fixed the bumper gap. We also fixed the bumpers to have the recommended 2 noodles. And we also changed our pneumatic solution to make the elevation of the extensions easier to do with a shorter cylinder. Thanks again for everyone’s help. You have saved our team from making a lot of mistakes.
This is looking much better... It still looks like you have two problems with your official BUMPER-- the plywood looks >5" tall-- since each noodle is 2.5" the plywood should just fit behind the noodles. At the corners, the plywood should not over lap-- this is not permitted.

I would recommend submitting a formal Q&A question about your design, asking both about the obscuring of your official team number on your official bumper as well as how G48 might apply.

<G48> Strategies aimed at the destruction, attachment, damage, tipping or entanglement of ROBOTS, MINIBOTS, or HOSTBOTS are not in the spirit of the FRC and are not allowed. Contact with another ROBOT or HOSTBOT inside it‟s FRAME PERIMETER is not allowed. Violation: PENALTY, plus potential disablement and YELLOW CARD

<bluebox>High speed accidental collisions may occur during the MATCH and are an expected part of LOGO MOTION™. ROBOTS place mechanisms outside of the BUMPER PERIMETER at their own risk; no penalties will be assigned for incidental contact with such extended mechanisms. For example, use of wedge-like mechanisms to flip ROBOTS would be considered a violation.<bluebox>

It says: "ROBOTS place mechanisms outside of the BUMPER PERIMETER at their own risk" Does this mean that you assume the risk of being assessed a penalty if another bot pushes you into the zone via only contact with an extension? Hard to say.
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Unread 23-01-2011, 08:15
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Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal

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Originally Posted by EricH View Post
I'd also be cautious about the plywood in the corners--because you're changing segments, you may run afoul of <R07-C>'s corner/segment joint-filling rules. In the past, it's been much clearer about whether or not hard parts in corners is prohibited (it was in the past, not sure about this year).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristan Lall View Post
Some years it was allowed, some years it wasn't. It's been quite inconsistent historically.

This year, a fully overlapped 90° corner with 0.750 in plywood would have a dimension of approximately 1.060 in between the outermost extent of the "hard part" of the bumper (the plywood corner) and the corner of the frame perimeter. That violates <R07L>, which stipulates a maximum of 1 in.

What makes this really insidious is that not every corner that overlaps would run afoul of this rule. Other angles or incomplete overlap might still satisfy <R07L>.
It's still there:
Quote:
D. BUMPERS segments must have a minimum length of six inches (as defined by the BUMPER backing), and a maximum length that does not exceed the maximum horizontal dimension of the ROBOT (except for the soft cushion in the corner, as permitted by Rule <R07-C>).
Now, you have to read into this that the "maximum horizontal dimension" means the dimension of the portion of the frame that the bumper is attached to.

If you use a non-rectangular frame (e.g. x-gon where x>4), the maximum horizontal dimension of your robot is longer than the length of any one side.

And if you do have a rectangular frame, this could be read that on the long sides, the wood can be no more that the length of that side, but on the short side the wood could be longer than the side, up to the length of the long side or the 1" hard part rule (<R07-L>), whichever is less.

However, 2010 rule <R07-B> read the same way as this year's rule, so I would assume anyone asking the GDC would get the same answer as in prior years - the wood segment cannot extend beyond the length of the frame segment.

Incidentally, the quasi-bumpers on the outriggers do not have to conform to <R07> - you could make them 3-noodles high if you wanted, or have hard parts around the corners. They would only have to comply with other rules about your extensions not harming another robot.
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Unread 23-01-2011, 09:35
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Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal

JJ,
Please PM me and I can help walk you through the bumper rules. We can either further this on email or you can give me a call after that. The bumper rules are a little difficult to understand at first.
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Unread 23-01-2011, 11:32
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Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryVoshol View Post
It's still there:

Now, you have to read into this that the "maximum horizontal dimension" means the dimension of the portion of the frame that the bumper is attached to.

If you use a non-rectangular frame (e.g. x-gon where x>4), the maximum horizontal dimension of your robot is longer than the length of any one side.

And if you do have a rectangular frame, this could be read that on the long sides, the wood can be no more that the length of that side, but on the short side the wood could be longer than the side, up to the length of the long side or the 1" hard part rule (<R07-L>), whichever is less.

However, 2010 rule <R07-B> read the same way as this year's rule, so I would assume anyone asking the GDC would get the same answer as in prior years - the wood segment cannot extend beyond the length of the frame segment.
That "maximum horizontal dimension" rule is still a bit messed up: imagine an isosceles triangle with one side just under 28 in, and two sides of 40 in. That fits within the permitted "maximum horizontal dimensions", but has a larger horizontal dimension than anything specifically described. In fact, geometrically, it would be extremely reasonable to say that the maximum horizontal dimension of a "28” x 38” (71.12cm x 96.52cm) rectangular space" is about 47.2 in (the hypotenuse). And even if you define it in terms of the current robot (rather than the hypothetical—this is not clear in the rule), you can still take a diagonal measurement that would seem to define the maximum horizontal dimension.

As for plywood extending into the corners, <R07C> seems to permit it ("by beveling the ends between adjacent segments"), and Figure 4-2 appears to support this interpretation (at low resolution, so at best it's inconclusive). <R07K> does not disallow it (since the "unsupported" portion of bumper backing is less than 8 in—a key difference from last year's rule which required the entire length of the bumper be supported by the frame perimeter). (<R07B> doesn't seem to be a factor here; were you thinking of something else?)
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Unread 23-01-2011, 12:05
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Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal

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Originally Posted by Nathan Streeter View Post
The bumper rules are certainly extensive! Most of the bumper construction is set out in the rules... There is also a required "bumper zone" so that all teams have their bumper at the same level, making tall bumpers less necessary. The bumper zone is 1"-7" from the ground... so the bumpers (which have to be 5" tall) have 1" of leeway. It's hard to tell, but using the 8" wheels as a reference, I'd estimate your bumpers may be too high for the bumper zone... maybe the plywood is just the wrong height though?

Yes, the wood should only be directly backed by metal - if the sides of your robot are 27" and 37", the wood should be a 3/4" thick piece of plywood with dimensions of 5" tall and either 27" or 37" in length. It's also required to protect the corners, a good way of doing this is putting a 5" long piece of pool noodle inside the fabric of the bumpers at the corners. We normally put this vertical 5" long noodle on the ends of the 27" long segments, but it doesn't matter where they go. :-)

I'm certainly impressed with the time/energy and CAD going into this from a rookie team... I really wish we competed at the same regional - maybe championships! ;-)
Cool so we can mount our bumpers so that they go from 2" off the ground to 7" off the ground. if we have a 1" leeywat and the actual bumper is only 5" tall.

Also we will get the corner fixed so that there is no wood overlap.

We have few funds so we are trying to be as precise with our virtual work as possible before we start cutting and buying. need to minimze waste. If anyone has some fundage they could spare the kids in south Philly would be very appreciative.
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Last edited by staplemonx : 23-01-2011 at 12:08.
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Unread 29-01-2011, 11:29
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Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal

See Team Update #6 for clarification to <G32> (Zones) and <G33> (Lanes>:

Quote:
<G61> does not apply to this rule, however strategies aimed at taking advantage of this exception will result in a YELLOW CARD. If a ROBOT enters the opponent's LANE and does not make immediate effort to leave OR if it contacts another ROBOT (or GAME PIECE in its POSSESSION) also in the LANE, then the intruding TEAM will receive a RED CARD.
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Unread 29-01-2011, 11:47
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Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal

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Originally Posted by JesseK View Post
This is a creative and interesting concept for defense, I think. At first glance I don't think it's illegal in its present form. Just keep in mind that the "bumpers" on the extensions must be included in the weight of the HOSTBOT, and cannot be thought of as the bumpers in the BUMPER specifications. Thus you can do pretty much whatever you want with them.

However, I think that this design is susceptible to easily being turned for two reasons:

1.) The extended frame creates more mechanical advantage for another robot to turn you.
2.) Even with traction wheels on the corners, there's very little weight on the outer corners in the extended positions; thus they provide little protection from another robot turning you.

If you're always beyond the Caution line and get turned into the opponent scoring zone by a high-traction high-torque robot, your robot will receive a penalty, per <G32>.

Thus, solve the anti-turning problem and I think that this is a solid strategy that blocks a good amount of the scoring zone.
they would not get a penalty, the team that pushed them in would
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Unread 29-01-2011, 12:46
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Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal

joek,

Check out the changes to <G32> and <G33> in Team Update #6. In a nutshell, <G61> does not apply to these rules, meaning that if your ROBOT crosses into the opposing LANE or ZONE you will get a PENALTY, regardless of how/why.
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Unread 29-01-2011, 14:53
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Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal

I know this is kind of random for this thread but, I made this account recently and I was wondering how do I post new threads and whats not
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Unread 30-01-2011, 08:39
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Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal

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Originally Posted by gbrettmiller View Post
joek,

Check out the changes to <G32> and <G33> in Team Update #6. In a nutshell, <G61> does not apply to these rules, meaning that if your ROBOT crosses into the opposing LANE or ZONE you will get a PENALTY, regardless of how/why.
we believe our strategy, shown below still works with the latest rules update.

Also since we don't believe any robot will be able to push us into their scoring zone we should be fine.
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