How to get the mini bot down

[jamie_1930]

It seems like every time I meet with someone or talk with someone about the mini bot they have 3 stock questions/comments.

1. Everyone on CD says they can do it in 1.5 seconds, how are we supposed to compete with that?

2.How do we deploy it?

and this threads topic

3.How do we get it down?

I've been wondering this and the way we designed our mini bot, and the common theme I see with many, it would not be good to just reverse the motors, seeing it would just shoot down at over 32.2ft/s^2. While pondering this I was thinking

-Well why don't I just climb the pole and get it, well cause a few hundred people would yell at me for not being safe and wouldn't let me do it again.

-How about shaking the pole, same reason as not reversing the motors except this time it won't have such a predictable landing spot.

-Next was the giant pool skimmer idea, why not get a long pole with a net on the end, cause there's got to be a better way (although still plausible)

My final thought and question to you now is, why not just tip the tower over. Looking at the design of the tower it is connected to the field with just velcro, so are we allowed to just tip the pole over?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by jamie_1930

My final thought and question to you now is, why not just tip the tower over. Looking at the design of the tower it is connected to the field with just velcro, so are we allowed to just tip the pole over?

You don't just tip something that's attached to carpet with industrial strength velcro. Trust me on this--I've done a little too much field setup/teardown. If you're lucky it's not on a base plate that is covered with carpet too--and that's just the setup I'd suspect.

Besides risks of damage and all that.

What if the motors could simply be stopped and allowed to be backdriven? Maybe with a slight loosening of pole clamps. This would allow gravity to take over, but in a (mostly) controlled manner.

How about a long pole with a fork on the end that fits around the pole? Put it above the minibot and pull down until it's within range of your tallest drive team member.

[h1n1is4pigs]

Originally Posted by jamie_1930

My final thought and question to you now is, why not just tip the tower over. Looking at the design of the tower it is connected to the field with just velcro, so are we allowed to just tip the pole over?

that would make way to much sense though and it eliminates the fun of trying to get a robot off a 10 ft pole

[JB987]

Originally Posted by EricH

You don't just tip something that's attached to carpet with industrial strength velcro. Trust me on this--I've done a little too much field setup/teardown. If you're lucky it's not on a base plate that is covered with carpet too--and that's just the setup I'd suspect.

Besides risks of damage and all that.

What if the motors could simply be stopped and allowed to be backdriven? Maybe with a slight loosening of pole clamps. This would allow gravity to take over, but in a (mostly) controlled manner.

How about a long pole with a fork on the end that fits around the pole? Put it above the minibot and pull down until it's within range of your tallest drive team member.

Eric,
Doesn't look like T25 allows us to bring "special equipment" to retrieve our minibots from the pole:
<T25> The only equipment that may be brought on to the ARENA is the OPERATOR CONSOLE,
reasonable decorative items, and special clothing and/or equipment required due to a
disability. Other items, particularly those intended to provide a competitive advantage for
the TEAM, are prohibited.
Granted, I don't see what competitive advantage a pole to retrieve a robot provides

[SirTasty]

Originally Posted by JB987

Eric,
Doesn't look like T25 allows us to bring "special equipment" to retrieve our minibots from the pole:
<T25> The only equipment that may be brought on to the ARENA is the OPERATOR CONSOLE,
reasonable decorative items, and special clothing and/or equipment required due to a
disability. Other items, particularly those intended to provide a competitive advantage for
the TEAM, are prohibited.
Granted, I don't see what competitive advantage a pole to retrieve a robot provides

Bring a flag, use the flag pole

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by JB987

Eric,
Doesn't look like T25 allows us to bring "special equipment" to retrieve our minibots from the pole:
<T25> The only equipment that may be brought on to the ARENA is the OPERATOR CONSOLE,
reasonable decorative items, and special clothing and/or equipment required due to a
disability. Other items, particularly those intended to provide a competitive advantage for
the TEAM, are prohibited.
Granted, I don't see what competitive advantage a pole to retrieve a robot provides

There is a way to get around it: make the device part of the robot or the operator console. (Obviously the robot isn't "equipment", because if it were, you couldn't bring it on the field; the console is equipment, but exempt.)

The part can be detachable, if you like. What's more, you arguably don't even have to have it attached to the rest of the robot during the match—its a modular component that you chose not to install during gameplay. (Just make sure to get it inspected as necessary; it would count toward weight.)

(Making it part of the robot is a standard solution to having an alignment device. In that case, it's a bit of a grey area whether those can be non-installed parts of the robot at the time of use. In this case, given the relative lack of ways to penalize you for it—because use occurs after the match—it's pretty much moot. Note that "moot" is distinct from "strictly legal"....)

An alternative is to ask the Q&A; they'll probably end up amending the rules to allow unpowered retrieval devices anyway.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by JB987

Eric,
Doesn't look like T25 allows us to bring "special equipment" to retrieve our minibots from the pole:
<T25> The only equipment that may be brought on to the ARENA is the OPERATOR CONSOLE,
reasonable decorative items, and special clothing and/or equipment required due to a
disability. Other items, particularly those intended to provide a competitive advantage for
the TEAM, are prohibited.
Granted, I don't see what competitive advantage a pole to retrieve a robot provides

Our team and many others last year used special "tools" to get our robots down once they hung. We had two fairly large "U" shaped hooks that we would slide into our hooks to release our robot. This was never questioned by anyone, and we actually receieved many compliments for thinking ahead and creating the tools.

Obviously the standard disclaimer of "last year's rules don't apply to this year" also fits here, but that is just an anecdote of a similar situation from previous games.


Personally, I think having a team bring some kind of device to get it down that the mini bot and device are both designed to do together is a lot easier to deal with than having to rip down minibots with whatever device FIRST is going to use. Even with an extremely well designed minibot and retrieval method, things can go wrong that may cause your minibot to be stuck.

Sounds to me like the GDC should be asked about this to get some clarification.

-Brando

[Joe Ross]

The GDC already ruled that a small step ladder violated <T25> http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=16331

Originally Posted by JB987

Granted, I don't see what competitive advantage a pole to retrieve a robot provides

It keeps your minibot from being destroyed by Dean's chainsaw, which is a big competitive advantage in future matches.

[JesseK]

Technically, by that wording of <T25>, tools to discharge a pneumatic mechanism and/or pick up a robot are illegal as well; yet I haven't seen a single judge or referee ever say anything about them. Particularly, Curved T-handle hooks are used by a few teams to pick the robot up. Usually these items are in the best interest of safety, and the only 'competitive' advantage they provide are allowing the drivers to safely retrieve game pieces and/or lift the robot without straining their back, in order to stay healthy for future matches.

It will be interesting to see the implications of enforcing <T25> as worded.

[Mike Betts]

The real alternative is to design your minibot to come down autonomously as it's last action so that it is at the bottom when you go to retrieve it...

[JB987]

Originally Posted by Mike Betts

The real alternative is to design your minibot to come down autonomously as it's last action so that it is at the bottom when you go to retrieve it...

But the challenge is how do you get it to come down at a reasonable speed if you are not using the NXT to reverse and lower the motor speed used to climb the tower because you are using the lightest, bare bones design for the climb and if you are geared such that you aren't going to backdrive with gravity's help? Assuming you have found that such ratios that allow backdrive increase likelihoold of stall conditions for the climb...

[Jared Russell]

Our Victors have brake and coast modes. No reason you can't make a minibot have a "brake" mode too!

[Mike Betts]

Originally Posted by Jared341

Our Victors have brake and coast modes. No reason you can't make a minibot have a "brake" mode too!

Indeed...

[GaryVoshol]

<R11>, blue box:

Note that the total weight of the ROBOT, MINIBOT, BUMPERS, and battery may approach 165 pounds. Please think carefully about lifting the weight safely. Teams are encouraged to use their forth TEAM member (typically in charge of the ROBOT cart) to carry the MINIBOT on to the FIELD separately. Teams are also encouraged to think about handles or lifting bars to aid in lifting and carrying the ROBOT.

Now it doesn't say, one way or another, whether those are removable lifting bars or handles. But as has been noted, separate carrying devices have been used in the past.

<G07> Items other than the ROBOTS and the GAME PIECES shall not be placed on the FIELD prior to or during the MATCH. Violation: PENALTY and YELLOW CARD

... says nothing about after the match.

I'm not sure how this works with <T25> - someone will have to ask.

[Bob Steele]

I asked the question in Q and A today.

1. Is a pole legal to bring on the field to help retrieve the minibot.

2. If the pole is part of the robot and detached at the end of the match can it be used to retrieve the minibot?

3. If the pole is part of the drive console and is detached at the end of the match can it be used to retrieve the minibot.

I also mentioned that this is a safety issue and that this device would not give a competitive edge to any team.

It will be interesting to see what they say.
I personally don't know how they can no to either 2 or 3 and then it will be pretty silly to say no to 1...

We will see

B