Snow days are killing us

[rcmolloy]

JJ,

I feel you man. We are in the Delaware Valley as well with many other teams and it seems like there's nothing that can stop this weather. I'm sure you can snag a few students for your team and bring them to your house or something. I have done that with a few people last year and it really helped. Although, I can see there being issues with the students going to where ever they could meet you.

If you guys need a place hit up some teams from around the Philly area. I'm sure we would help you out but we're 45 minutes outside of of the city so haha.

Talk to your new man Akash, he will help you out a lot.

[JudyVandy]

There was one year (2003?) that the whole eastern quarter of the US was shut down because of about 2 feet or more of snow, Carolinas to Maine, and we were given a few days. However, this was mainly because FedEx could not do their pick-ups rather than because teams could not get to finish their robots.

With that in mind, don't plan on any extention!

[Ed Sparks]

In Alabama, we lost the first 10 days due to snow and school closings. Policy dictates that school groups cannot meet if the school is officially closed. This is definitely a tough year for us and I hope FIRST gives us some relief. I expect a larger "Holdback allowance" will be the best way to help all of us.

[fox46]

In our area (Stayner Ontario) whenever they close the roads the snowmobile trails are open and the build continues! It also helps that our primary workspace is a snowmobile recycling and repair shop. As a matter of fact many kids ride sleds to school because you can get a snowmobile operator's card at age 12 so transportation usually isn't an issue.

My suggestion would be to make friends with a custodian and get him/her to let you in to get your parts and work at home. Better yet, see if you can find a local business to loan you some workspace.

There is of course the other option.... Find someone willing to let you into the school despite beurocratic policies and power through the storm! Sometimes you just have to look the other way or find a creative way around little roadblocks like this. There are things that I have done in the past in highschool on my own team that had I not, we would not have been able to do the things we did.

[staplemonx]

Originally Posted by fox46

In our area (Stayner Ontario) whenever they close the roads the snowmobile trails are open and the build continues! It also helps that our primary workspace is a snowmobile recycling and repair shop. As a matter of fact many kids ride sleds to school because you can get a snowmobile operator's card at age 12 so transportation usually isn't an issue.

Thats just awsome.

I miss the OP and snow mobiles, used to play hockey up in ignace and wassaga beach.

[thefro526]

JJ,

Snow days have been a part of build for as long as I can remember - they're just part of the game. We usually aim to be "done" by the end of week 4 just so that we know our schedule can slip a week and we're still on time-ish.

Also, if there's anything I can do to help, please let me know.

[Brandon Holley]

Snow days are tough. It's something our team deals with every year living in New England. You must try to get work done on days where you are unable to meet. Whether it's finishing design work, creating drawings, constructing BOMs, ordering materials, working on awards submissions, etc. This year has been tough on us as well (~60" of snow on the winter thus far, ~50" of which during build season), so we are definitely a little behind.

All we can do is work as hard as possible to make up the time, and if FIRST throws us a bone great, but we cannot count on that happening.

-Bando

[spartan058]

I agree, but last year, FIRST allowed us to keep up to 50% of our weight from Ship Date, and we just brought it with us to BAE, where we attached it to the Robot, and then it was crated up at the end as usual.

[pandamonium]

work on non robot things... Chairmans, WFA, strategy, inventor, Reading Chief Delphi, rereading the rules,

There are so many things to do that don't involve the robot and don't involve physically being at the school.

when life gives you lemons make lemonade

[Racer26]

I don't understand why this is such an issue every year. 1075 is based in Whitby, ON (Golden Horseshoe, just outside of Toronto). In the now 8 seasons I've been involved in FRC, I can remember I think 2 snow days. Our area can often receive anywhere from 4-12" in a given night.

Now, I can understand when a freak storm hits an unprepared southern state like Texas, or Florida. They don't normally see snow and so obviously people dont have snow tires on their vehicles, the city and state don't have the snowplows to clear the roads, or the salt trucks to make them safe to traverse.

When northeastern states like Maine and Pennsylvania are closing schools over less than 12" of snow? Its ridiculous. These are areas that get LOTS of snow, EVERY winter, and they're still woefully underprepared. Why does this KEEP happening? Maybe FRC teams should be appealing to their state officials to change the culture, and improve the snow removal programs, because it is ADVERSELY AFFECTING THEIR EDUCATION. The future of our youth depends on their education today, and its suffering because of their poor snow removal practices.

That being said, even when our school board DID call a snow day, we were in the shop, at the school working. I understand that some school boards won't allow their teams to do this (which I think is silly, however, I understand that sometimes school boards make rules which are inconvenient to their FRC teams, we've had a few issues ourselves). However, what is to stop these teams for whom this is a perennial issue from getting a sponsor to support them with a build space which won't close due to snow (when was the last time you heard of major industrial companies shutting their factory for a snowstorm?), or even go so far as to build at a mentor or student's home.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

However, what is to stop these teams for whom this is a perennial issue from getting a sponsor to support them with a build space which won't close due to snow (when was the last time you heard of major industrial companies shutting their factory for a snowstorm?), or even go so far as to build at a mentor or student's home.

School board policies again. The need for an official school event to take place at the school or in the presence of multiple teachers. School property (the robot) may need to remain on the premises. Etc...

There are ways around snow days - but they're a lot easier to get around in the CAD stage than in the machining or practice stage.

[Racer26]

Seems to me that those policies are somewhat flexible. If the teams calmly, cohesively, and respectfully approach their school board, they can usually get the board to make concessions given the time-restricted nature of the competitions. I know that originally back in 2003 when 1075 was a rookie, and had the opportunity to go to CMP in Houston, TX following the Canadian Regional where we were regional finalists (thanks 188, 306) we didn't end up going because the school board would not let our students cross the USA/Canada border on a school trip. We have subsequently gotten the school board to change this policy, and have been actively participating in Offseasons in Flint, MI (Kettering Kickoff) and North Brunswick, NJ (Brunswick Eruption) as well as attending 2010 CMP in Atlanta.

School board policies CAN be changed, if the school board is approached correctly. Whining and stomping feet will get you nowhere, however.

[JamesBrown]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

I don't understand why this is such an issue every year. 1075 is based in Whitby, ON (Golden Horseshoe, just outside of Toronto). In the now 8 seasons I've been involved in FRC, I can remember I think 2 snow days. Our area can often receive anywhere from 4-12" in a given night.

Now, I can understand when a freak storm hits an unprepared southern state like Texas, or Florida. They don't normally see snow and so obviously people dont have snow tires on their vehicles, the city and state don't have the snowplows to clear the roads, or the salt trucks to make them safe to traverse.

When northeastern states like Maine and Pennsylvania are closing schools over less than 12" of snow? Its ridiculous. These are areas that get LOTS of snow, EVERY winter, and they're still woefully underprepared. Why does this KEEP happening? Maybe FRC teams should be appealing to their state officials to change the culture, and improve the snow removal programs, because it is ADVERSELY AFFECTING THEIR EDUCATION. The future of our youth depends on their education today, and its suffering because of their poor snow removal practices.

That being said, even when our school board DID call a snow day, we were in the shop, at the school working. I understand that some school boards won't allow their teams to do this (which I think is silly, however, I understand that sometimes school boards make rules which are inconvenient to their FRC teams, we've had a few issues ourselves). However, what is to stop these teams for whom this is a perennial issue from getting a sponsor to support them with a build space which won't close due to snow (when was the last time you heard of major industrial companies shutting their factory for a snowstorm?), or even go so far as to build at a mentor or student's home.

I think that you are underestimating the logistical differences in clearing a city like Philly and an area like you are in. First Philly only gets half as much snow a year as you guys do, so they have not spent the money to develop the infrastructure to clear the snow. In a year like this with unusually heavy snow fall it is extremely hard to stay ahead of the weather. Most of the North East has already hit their yearly averages for snow fall (in many cases causing them to exhaust their budget for snow removal) and it is not even February yet.

I recently moved from Upstate NY to Western VA. Their attitude towards snow is completely different. We got 3 inches in VA the other day and the Area colleges got a day off. In upstate NY we got 12 inches one night and classes were only delayed by an hour so they could clear the walkways. Having the investment in infrastructure to handle snow is key. I thought it was crazy that places here closed with so little snow but then on my drive to work it became apparent why, there were cars off the road everywhere.

Cars off the road in western VA does not have a huge effect on traffic. However a similar problem in a city like Philly (with ~5x the population density of Toronto) would be devastating). The obvious solution to this is to buy more snow/ice removal equipment. That just isn’t possible for most of these cities. They are already having trouble with finances, cutting sports and other school programs, taking more money away from other programs to help pay for snow removal is just not an option.

As far as missing build time because school is closed goes, all of the schools I have worked with (6 schools in 3 states inculding public and private) prohibit any meetings of school groups, even off school grounds during snow days. It is a lot to ask a teacher who mentors a team to permit the students to meet when if word got back to the school about it that teacher could face disciplinary measures.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by JamesBrown

I think that you are underestimating the logistical differences in clearing a city like Philly and an area like you are in. First Philly only gets half as much snow a year as you guys do, so they have not spent the money to develop the infrastructure to clear the snow. In a year like this with unusually heavy snow fall it is extremely hard to stay ahead of the weather. Most of the North East has already hit their yearly averages for snow fall (in many cases causing them to exhaust their budget for snow removal) and it is not even February yet.

I recently moved from Upstate NY to Western VA. Their attitude towards snow is completely different. We got 3 inches in VA the other day and the Area colleges got a day off. In upstate NY we got 12 inches one night and classes were only delayed by an hour so they could clear the walkways. Having the investment in infrastructure to handle snow is key. I thought it was crazy that places here closed with so little snow but then on my drive to work it became apparent why, there were cars off the road everywhere.

Cars off the road in western VA does not have a huge effect on traffic. However a similar problem in a city like Philly (with ~5x the population density of Toronto) would be devastating). The obvious solution to this is to buy more snow/ice removal equipment. That just isn’t possible for most of these cities. They are already having trouble with finances, cutting sports and other school programs, taking more money away from other programs to help pay for snow removal is just not an option.

As far as missing build time because school is closed goes, all of the schools I have worked with (6 schools in 3 states inculding public and private) prohibit any meetings of school groups, even off school grounds during snow days. It is a lot to ask a teacher who mentors a team to permit the students to meet when if word got back to the school about it that teacher could face disciplinary measures.

I agree with you that Philadelphia, PA has roughly 5x the population density of Toronto, (according to wikipedia) It also has roughly HALF of the area (in the "City" field, on wikipedia, since I'm not really sure how to compare them otherwise).

Increased population density, and reduced area should make snow removal easier, NOT harder. There's less area, and therefore less snow to move. You also mentioned that Philly gets roughly half the snow Toronto does.

Toronto is also home to the North Americas widest and busiest highway (Our 401 is 16 lanes wide at its widest point through Toronto, and handles an average annual daily traffic of 425,000 cars (2004 numbers)) and the Downtown core's density is so high, that there is nowhere for them to put the snow they plow off the roads. There is no doubt that both cities would come to a screeching halt in the face of a abnormally large snowfall. However, when I hear this same issue every year coming from teams north of the Carolinas, I have to wonder how "abnormal" this really is.

This is besides the point I was trying to make however, and that most people live within a 30-60 minute walk of their school no matter what the conditions are. Whether its safe to drive a motor vehicle to get to school or not, you CAN get there, and so its reasonable to appeal to the school board to allow your team to continue work, even when classes have been cancelled. Perhaps reminding them that your team's sponsors have put up LARGE dollars for your students to have the learning experience that participation in FRC affords them, but that they're unable to take advantage of it due to the school board's policies. My understanding of why school boards call snow days is an issue of safety. They don't want the kids getting hurt in accidents on the way to school. Show them how you can be safe, and they might change their tune.

[davidthefat]

In California, there are "fire days" instead of snow days. Must say I rather take snow days over fire days when the skies are red and ashes "snow".