Team Update #7

[gblake]

Originally Posted by dodar

No, you read it wrong. The FINAL tube placed onto that peg with an ubertube on it are the only tubes that count.

For my peace of mind, are you able to easily cite a rule # for that?

[sgreco]

Originally Posted by gblake

For my peace of mind, are you able to easily cite a rule # for that?

G<67> Scores will be assessed when the MATCH ends and all objects in motion come to rest, or 10 seconds elapses, whichever comes first. (it was G<68> prior to revG of the rules).

I read this to say that wherever tubes are at the end of the match is where they are scored. It doesn't matter where they were before that.

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by sgreco

R<67> Scores will be assessed when the MATCH ends and all objects in motion come to rest, or 10 seconds elapses, whichever comes first.

I read this to say that wherever tubes are at the end of the match is where they are scored. It doesn't matter where they were before that.

Oddly enough, this means that the match could end with less than 2 minutes of TELEOP...

[EricH]

Originally Posted by sgreco

G<67> Scores will be assessed when the MATCH ends and all objects in motion come to rest, or 10 seconds elapses, whichever comes first. (it was G<68> prior to revG of the rules).

I read this to say that wherever tubes are at the end of the match is where they are scored. It doesn't matter where they were before that.

Actually...

Try <G62> (Rev G; previously <G63>).

If two GAME PIECES are HANGING from a single SCORING PEG, the outermost GAME PIECE will be counted for scoring purposes.

If there were 5 "virtual hangers", then only the outermost one would count.

[sgreco]

Originally Posted by EricH

Actually...

Try <G62> (Rev G; previously <G63>).

If there were 5 "virtual hangers", then only the outermost one would count.

I see I misread gblake's question. I was speaking to a different point, Tubes may not be scored twice. A tube cannot be moved to a different peg to be scored again, but yes, the outermost tubes also clarifies how tubes are scored with relation to position or changing position.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by dodar

No, you read it wrong. The FINAL tube placed onto that peg with an ubertube on it are the only tubes that count.

Originally Posted by gblake

For my peace of mind, are you able to easily cite a rule # for that?

The rule that seems most applicable is <G62>: "If two GAME PIECES are HANGING from a single SCORING PEG, the outermost GAME PIECE will be counted for scoring purposes."

The old definition of HANGING said that a HANGING GAME PIECE was considered to be HANGING for the rest of the match. With that part of the definition now gone, <G62> doesn't have to concern itself with ghost tubes.

[JesseK]

Blake, in 2007 the refs didn't have a hard time determining whether a tube that was on the rack fell off and then should have been counted. It didn't happen that often tbh.

It's important to realize when interpreting the rules that <G64> states that PEGS are scored, not tubes. If I'm reading and thinking it through correctly as of Revision G+ to the Game Rules:

• If a fallen off tube is on the ground at the end of the match, and another tube was put in its place then the tube that was put in its place counts<G64> & <G68> & Update7
• If the tube on the ground was picked up and put somewhere else, then it counts on its new peg and not its old one <G64> & <G68>, new def'n of HANGING
• If a tube falls of, another tube was not put in its place, and the fallen-off tube is on the ground at the end of the match then the peg the tube was on does not receive a score for that tube <G64>&<G68> & Update7
• "On the ground" here represents any and all scenarios where the tube is no longer HANGING

Note, there's a RevG+ coming out (link is broken atm) that reinstates <G60> -- Thus the <G67> we're talking about will become <G68> again.

P.S. -- Maybe I could get a WP? Maybe?

[sgreco]

Originally Posted by JesseK

Blake, in 2007 the refs didn't have a hard time determining whether a tube that was on the rack fell off and then should have been counted. It didn't happen that often tbh.

I agree with your point, but the cap on the end of each peg is much smaller this year (I forget the exact dimension in 2007). I still don't think it will be an issue, but we might have to wait and see.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by sgreco

G<67> Scores will be assessed when the MATCH ends and all objects in motion come to rest, or 10 seconds elapses, whichever comes first. (it was G<68> prior to revG of the rules).

I read this to say that wherever tubes are at the end of the match is where they are scored. It doesn't matter where they were before that.

Thanks - But I had to throw in the towel and do some looking on my own.

Just from reading the discussion here (and just by reading the change history tables in the rules) it wasn't clear to me that Update 7 dramatically changed the definition of Hanging from OLD:

HANGING – aGAME PIECE is HANGING when it is fully supported by a PEG and released by the POSSESSING ROBOT. Once a GAME PIECE has been released by the POSSESSING ROBOT (even momentarily) and is HANGING (e.g. it is fully supported by the PEG), it is considered to be HANGING until the end of the match. If a GAME PIECE on the floor is preventing a GAME PIECE that has been hung on a bottom PEG from becoming fully supported (that is, if the floor GAME PIECE was not there, the hung GAME PIECE would be scored) then that GAME PIECE will still be counted as scored.

to NEW:

HANGING – a GAME PIECE is HANGING when it is fully supported by a PEG through its center hole and released by the POSSESSING ROBOT. If a GAME PIECE on the floor is preventing a GAME PIECE that has been hung on a bottom PEG from becoming fully supported (that is, if the floor GAME PIECE was not there, the hung GAME PIECE would be scored) then that GAME PIECE will still be counted as scored.

That will certainly remove some complications from our 5th Gear scoring logic and from referees' lives. That definition change makes my scenario boring, instead of a way to rack up a high score; and it does appear to make looking at the pegs at the end of a match, equivalent to determining which tubes contribute to the score.

Blake
PS: Jesse the WP I often use is "V".

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by EricH

Ok, so it is.

Now, what rule was deleted without an Update? Would have happened between Rev E (which I have on my computer) and Rev G. It's not picked up in the Revisions section in Rev G. Either that, or there was a renumbering.

Edit: As Gary said, <G60> from Rev E (AKA, Be civil to the other folks in the Arena or get a Yellow Card).

Not sure how long it's been out there, but there is a now a game manual rev G+ which puts <G60> back in.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by pfreivald

Oddly enough, this means that the match could end with less than 2 minutes of TELEOP...

That's exactly what it means. If there are four 3-second minibots, we've got 1:53 of actual gameplay.

Channeling my inner Car-Nack, I predict that at some point in the season, an elimination round will be lost because all minibots hit the trigger before the other robot scores a top-tier logo - which is to say it would have been better to have never sent the fourth minibot at all.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Joe Ross

Not sure how long it's been out there, but there is a now a game manual rev G+ which puts <G60> back in.

You got a working link? The online one goes to an error page; downloading from the link doesn't work either.

[nitneylion452]

Originally Posted by EricH

You got a working link? The online one goes to an error page; downloading from the link doesn't work either.

I can't get to it either, but we know that <G60> is put back in from what's underneath the link.

Describes the game in detail. Version G+ reinserts Rule <G60> that was accidentally deleted in version G.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Joe Ross

Not sure how long it's been out there, but there is a now a game manual rev G+ which puts <G60> back in.

Can anyone actually see this revision? I get a not-found error.

So that means instead of reading a manual with one rule missing, now people can't read the manual at all. (Unless they're like me, and download every version of it.)

Oh, I just checked - the whole version is there, with <G60>.

[Bob Steele]

Originally Posted by Mr.G

How can you call it a dubious(?) strategy?



The GDC needs to stop changing the rules in an attempt to get the game to be played how they think it should be played and let the game be played how they originally wrote the rules. I think it isn’t GP on GDC’s part to make changes to the rules that affect the design of robots this late in the season. They are saying we don’t care about the time and effort you put into this program “we want the game played this way”. I am fine if they want to clarify rules, but to completely delete them is not right. Also making changes with 3 weeks left is not acceptable. Thanks for wasting my time GDC.

With all due respect....

If the GDC created the game don't you think they have the right to see it played as they envisioned it? Many times in the past the GDC has stepped in to make the game play better within the vision of how they wrote the rules.

The rules were written to play the game...
It is not the other way around.

i know what the rules used to say.. but really now... do you think that is how the game is supposed to be played?

The initial rule had said that once a tube was scored it stayed scored... it never said that it could be scored twice...

i am personally glad this decision was made.
It will make the game better.

This should be a robotic competition... not a competition where a slick rules interpretation leads to victory...

If you need to do that... ask in Q and A as 469 did last year... then proceed.

This year... the GDC says no... not the way the game is to be played...

good luck on the field!!