Democrat or Republican

In life I have learned that there are two things you never discuss with friends:

1. Religion

2. Politics

I suggest that you think about my words.

[AdamT]

Originally posted by Mike Rush
There is a truth. There is a right and there is a wrong.

Look...enough is enough. The way in which you have posted is uncalled for. You have NO right to decide what may have been offensive to me or anyone else. To tell you the truth, it was the fact in which your opinions were stated that offended me. It was the general disrespect towards others and their opinions. It was the fact that one person's ideas and beliefs were picked apart to a personal level. I felt personal attacks were made on people. The point is SOMEONE GOT OFFENDED. Nothing else matters.

I respect your beliefs and opinions as your beliefs and opinions. I don't feel that the respect is being returned to me or others.

The fact of the matter is that this is a site about robotics for FIRST participants, not one of moral issues and judgement debates. It is a forum in which I would hope I could go to read and not be offended doing so.

Please remember what the forum's purpose is and that you are representing your team.

[Mike Rush]

When considering a matter of right and wrong, knowing that there is a difference IS in the best interest of 'representing your team'! Or, for that matter, representing yourself, your family, government, or faith.

Question: If your opinions offended me, would you not post them? --- fill in your answer ---

Since you answered in the affirmative (as you must besause you are asking me not to post my opinions since they offended you. I'm sure you would not ask someone else to do what you would not also agree to do), post no opinions concerning any pro abortion, pro gun control, pro protectionism, anti school choice, pro socialist govenmental takeover of health care, pro moral relativism, or anti-religous sentiment because these offend me.

With the best of intentions....

[Ryan Dognaux]

Strategery? Lockbox?

Why does Gore think he invented the Internet?!?!?

<--- Republican supporter

[Madison]

I'm tired, I tried to stay out of this, and I apologize in advance for the multitudes of people I'll surely piss off.

First, to stay on topic - I'm registered as an Indepent, though I voted for many Democratic candidates in the last election. Honestly, I don't know much about the party platforms and would rather investigate each candidates stance on issues that are important to me.

Finally, this isn't meant to be a personal attack. I don't know Mike Rush, I have never met him, I don't care to meet him, and he's free to believe whatever he'd like to believe. Further, he's free to openly and endlessly write about it here or anywhere else, and defend himself as he deems necessary. Or not. He can be the 'bigger person' and let it die, because, obviously, any person who makes an effort at clarifying themselves, their position, or history is out for the big win and nothing else. I don't care anymore, really. I've just about had it with these forums - or society - or me. I don't know. I do know, though, that I probably won't feel any better for writing any of this - but I will anyway for the sake of continuity and for the sake of my sanity. I need this for myself more than anyone reading it probably does.

Originally posted by Mike Rush
There is a truth. There is a right and there is a wrong. It is completely independent of what you (or I) think about any subject. Unfortunately, moral relativism has permeated our society and is tearing it apart.

The battle is between traditional moral values and post modern relativism. It is a battle about the basic civil societal beliefs. Ask yourself... If right and wrong are relative, where is the line? Who decides where it is? When will it cross the point at which you would draw it? What will you do then? What should you do now?

By your logic, though, is there really any battle at all? You're setting yourself up as an absolute. You are right. 'Moral relativists' are wrong. You're not inviting debate, obviously, but declaring the supremacy of your line of thinking. You won't entertain the possibility of another opinion because you would then be participating in something you perceive to be destructive to society.

Truth is a very powerful word, and it's been used in such a way that shows little regard for that power. But, again, that's me speaking as a moral relativist, by default, since I'm questioning you.

If you've convinced yourself of this, I envy you. There's little else in the world that I seek more than conviction. I don't know, for certain, about anything. I am forced to call my life into question on a daily basis, but I fight on. It's hard, really, and I'm not always certain why I do it. But, somewhere, somehow, there's a driving force that keeps me going - keeps me questioning, and learning, and growing. Maybe it's conviction. Maybe it's something else. Something weak. Something sinister. Something lost.

While I don't suspect this to be the case, it's also entirely possible that you've architected your argument in such a way as to achieve what I've described. If so, good try. I'm not buying it, though, and through this post, I'm fulfilling my obligation to myself - and to others (by my own order, admittedly) to point it out. It's a good word game you've played, but it is only a game. The truth of the matter is that you're in no better position to tell what is wrong or right than anyone else. The truth of the matter is that moral relativism is unavoidable in the face of progress.

What is right and wrong, anyway? Where can we find an absolute definition? Webster's? Surely, good old Daniel put his own moral spin on the words. The Bible? Are people who aren't Christian contributing to the moral decay of our society? The Koran? The Torah? Consumer Reports? Who in the realm of man defines truth? I don't know. I don't think you know either.

Oh, but there's that pesky relativism creeping up on us again.

I have more to say, honestly. I'd intended to go back and research some documentation regarding separation of church and state. But, given your last post, I won't bother. It's not worth it.

* * *

Again, I apologize to everyone. I can't say what for, exactly, because I'm still not certain quite what I've done that seems to upset people so greatly. I'm learning, growing, and changing - and in some major ways that most people would never conceive. Writing helps me to work things out - and for everything I write in public, know that I've done ten times as much in private conversation or in journal. It's not personal, but it helps me to clarify how I feel, and I hope that maybe by doing this 'out loud', so to speak, there's one person somewhere who has things a bit easier than I've had. I know my views, my decisions, and my words are not always popular, but it's taken me a long time, a lot of difficult introspection, and a lot of strength to be able to share them - and I can't let people stop take that away from me.

Yes, I am fighting for something with every fiber of my being each time I write. No, I don't care one bit if I'm right.

I hope that clears things up. I'm sorry.

[Ryan Dognaux]

Well Said.

Originally posted by M. Krass
Consumer Reports?

I found that quite humorous

[AdamT]

Originally posted by Mike Rush
Question: If your opinions offended me, would you not post them? --- fill in your answer ---

Since you answered in the affirmative (as you must besause you are asking me not to post my opinions since they offended you. I'm sure you would not ask someone else to do what you would not also agree to do), post no opinions concerning any pro abortion, pro gun control, pro protectionism, anti school choice, pro socialist govenmental takeover of health care, pro moral relativism, or anti-religous sentiment because these offend me.

Mr. Rush,

Please quote me in on single place in this whole forum board in which I have made a single comment as to my opinions on these matters. The only comments I have made are to defend the government that has been set in place and to urge people to vote.

With that said, I have no objections to you posting your opinions. My only objection is the fasion in which you have posted them. I will assume your above statement was not directed at me, but to others who have posted their opinions. The point that I am trying to convey is that the intensity and extreme description of your opinions is not necessary. I know we all have passions about issues, but I think the best action would be to try and contain them. Bill Gold displayed his opinions in a very tactful manner, yet I know he is very passionate about them. He stated the opinion in a minimalist fasion and moved on. I have purposely not expressed my opinions on any issues for the fact that I would like to avoid confrontation over them.

If there were a point to this thread, it would to be to state your opinion, not to question the opinions of others. I know this makes me a hypocrit for criticizing other's views of the government and politicians, yes I admit it. So that makes me wrong for trying to get people involved in our own government. The only point I am trying to get through is to try and keep a level of maturity and tact when discussing such serious issues...

I apologize if you still can not understand the point I am trying to convey or can not at least agree to disagree.

[Kit Gerhart]

Originally posted by FotoPlasma


As for the memorial itself, I agree that it did become a political rally, but I don't think you could really eulogize Paul Wellstone in any proper manner without promoting the Democratic Party.

As I see it, the memorial probably turned into kind of a "wake" for liberals and progressives, and I suspect Wellstone would have wanted it that way.

[Kit Gerhart]

I am an independant, but have voted for mostly Democrats since the Republican party changed from the party of Lincoln into something much different.

I haven't voted for many successful candidates for president, and the ones I have voted for, Nixon and Clinton, have had (IMHO) some good policy decisions, but a number of personal problems.

Oh well.

[Katie Reynolds]

I am going to stay out of the political part of this all. I wanted to stay out of this thread completely, but I cannot go on not saying anything, anymore.

People are entitled to their own beliefs and opinions – that's what opinions are: what you believe! I don't think anyone here or anywhere else, for that matter, should be robbed of that right.

M posed the question, "What is right and wrong, anyway?" The answer is, there is no right and wrong when it comes to certain things. Politics is one of these things.

M also said, "Truth is a very powerful word, and it's been used in such a way that shows little regard for that power." I agree completely. There is no 'truth' when it comes to the points raised here. You can twist and turn any situation to make you feel better about your choices. The only way to find the "truth" in some of these matters, is to look at it from a completely unbiased point of view – something very few people can do.

All politics are, are the beliefs, opinions and ideas of others. To go ahead and say, "Well, I like this candidate because (s)he believes what I believe" is fine. To say, "Well, I like this candidate because (s)he believes what I believe, and anyone who disagrees with me is WRONG," is not fine.

Go ahead. Post your political beliefs. But don't bash others while doing so. Don't dwell on arguments of the past. In fact, don't argue at all. Everyone is better off this way.

"When we say that two men are talking politics, we often mean that they are wrangling about some mere party question." --F. W. Robertson.

- Katie

[MissInformation]

I am a DemoCat. I am pro-catnip, anti-declawing, and I think all cats should have the right of choice concerning spaying and neutering.

MissInformation

<===========>
Purr and the whole world purrs with you, hiss and you hiss alone.

[SlamminSammy]

The 'morality of compromise' sounds contradictory. Compromise is usually a sign of weakness, or an admission of defeat. Strong men don't compromise, it is said, and principles should never be compromised.

-Andrew Carnegie

[Brandon Martus]

Hmm. Yep.

I think this thread has out-lived its allotted lifespan. Everybody has had ample time to make their point and express their opinions many, many times.

If you would like to continue this discussion, please do so via e-mail or instant messenger. Thanks.