Mentors on drive team

[Bjenks548]

Originally Posted by IndySam

The point of FIRST is inspire by having students working with and alongside mentors. What could be more inspiring than the direct connection between an adult coach and a student drive team?

That sounds great for the 3 people on the drive team, but to take away a spot on the field for a mentor from a student seems to be counter intuitive to the inspiring students instead of mentors. I understand that mentors put a ton of time and I truly respect them for it, but I don't think they belong on the field (this isn't to say I hate all mentors/teams that have an adult coach, I just feel its better to have a student there)

[epic_wts]

Wait, are the mentors allowed to train the drivers, but not allowed to actually drive the robot at any time themselves? Is that right?

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Bjenks548

That sounds great for the 3 people on the drive team, but to take away a spot on the field for a mentor from a student seems to be counter intuitive to the inspiring students instead of mentors.

Yes, it does take a spot away from a student, but that mentor inspires and teaches the other three members on the driveteam in a way that the typical student cannot. Atleast for our team, I don't think our drivers would have the same positive experience with a student instead of an adult mentor. Throughout the entire process, its about mentors passing on their experience and knowledge to the students, why should it change at the event?

[Dr Theta]

Originally Posted by epic_wts

Wait, are the mentors allowed to train the drivers, but not allowed to actually drive the robot at any time themselves? Is that right?

They are not allowed to drive the robot in competition as per the definition of DRIVER:

DRIVER – a pre-college student team member responsible for operating and controlling the HOSTBOT. There are two DRIVERS per TEAM.

Emphasis mine.

They may however drive the robot outside of competition.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by epic_wts

Wait, are the mentors allowed to train the drivers, but not allowed to actually drive the robot at any time themselves? Is that right?

Mentors are not allowed to drive the robot. It's a red card and disable if they operate the controls (<G56>). Drivers are the only ones who can touch the controls; drivers must be pre-college students; mentors can be the coach if that is what the team wants, but the coach can't touch the controls.

All I'm going to say on the original topic is: FIRST has left it open for the teams to decide whether a mentor or a student is the drive coach. Which your team chooses and why is not my business; you can tell me, but unless you've got a reason that's really out of line I'm not going to say anything either way.

[Bjenks548]

I'm guess I'm just confused on how a mentor is on the drive team is more inspiring then a student. Also my mentors also continue to inspire me at competition in the pit and strategy meetings.

[artdutra04]

Think of it this way: from Kindergarten through 12th grade, are you taught by your peers or by adults?

How much do you think a class taught by a student would learn relative to how much a class taught by a teacher would learn?


P.S. Don't bring up "video games" as a reason why student coaches are superior, as video games have been around for almost forty years and your parents most likely grew up playing them too.

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by Bjenks548

That sounds great for the 3 people on the drive team, but to take away a spot on the field for a mentor from a student seems to be counter intuitive to the inspiring students instead of mentors. I understand that mentors put a ton of time and I truly respect them for it, but I don't think they belong on the field (this isn't to say I hate all mentors/teams that have an adult coach, I just feel its better to have a student there)

To follow your logic shouldn't you change the drive team every match too inspire as many students as possible?

[Bjenks548]

Originally Posted by IndySam

To follow your logic shouldn't you change the drive team every match too inspire as many students as possible?

Ideally yes, and we do at off season events; however everyone likes to win and people do have more skills then other at the drive team positions. And as far as the teachers comment above, I agree when the teachers by far know more about the information, but like I've already stated, the students and the mentors get the game on the same day. A student can be just as good as a coach as any mentor.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Bjenks548

the students and the mentors get the game on the same day. A student can be just as good as a coach as any mentor.

Being a good field coach more than just knowing the game and having a good handle on the stategy. Good field coaches must be good at communicating and interacting not only to your driveteam, but to the other alliances. Must be able to stay cool and calm. Must command the drivers respect so they listen to them. Must represent the team in the best possible way. Must be able to quickly process information and make sound decisions. These are not things that are learned in 6 weeks, but practiced, improved and perfected in the 20 or so additional years the adult mentor has over the student.


I have no problem with teams using students as field coaches, but I disagree with the idea that the typical student is just as good (if not better) than the average adult mentor.

[Henry Williams]

Our team has the policy like your (OP) that it should be student designed and built with mentor approval/criticism and basically every year we have a mentor as coach, I'm sure that if we students wanted a student coach instead they would allow us the chance but none of us have ever had a problem with it before. My suggestion would be to ask your drivers if they would be willing to consider the benefits of this situation.

[Drivencrazy]

As many people in this thread have said, I believe a student coach can be as good as a mentor coach as long as they have the required skills. In my experience as an operator for one year and the driver for another, student coaches do not feel as comfortable directing the actions of others as many mentors do.

I also don't believe that teams are losing out on inspiring students by using a mentor coach. I feel that all students at the competition can be inspired not just the three or four on the field. Lots of work goes on at the competitions not just driving. If you feel that your students will lose out on inspiration by not having a student coach then by all means use one.

The OP's team has a "hands off" mentor policy. If they feel that carrying that over to the competition will help inspire their students then they should do that. But I have seen many great students be inspired by mentor drivers and by mentors in the pit and scouting.

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by Bjenks548

Ideally yes, and we do at off season events; however everyone likes to win and people do have more skills then other at the drive team positions. And as far as the teachers comment above, I agree when the teachers by far know more about the information, but like I've already stated, the students and the mentors get the game on the same day. A student can be just as good as a coach as any mentor.

So using that logic if a team has a better chance to win with an experienced-seasoned coach you are suggesting they use them.

I think it's great to rotate drive teams and use student coaches at off-season competitions to get as many students experience behind the glass as possible. This is a regular practice for many teams, including ours.

[45Auto]

Originally Posted by bigboom1

Lets see....
1) Younger, thus, faster reflexes
2) Most likely played video games, and capable of processing multiple streams of information faster.
3) The student coach will hopefully be one of the friends of the drivers, and will be able to communicate with them based on their prior experiences.
4) A student coach should have had experience in previous years as scout, or driveteam. Hopefully this will push them to notice the little things that are important.

So you really believe that a football player with a couple of years of experience could do a better job coaching the Green Bay Packers than 47 year old Mike Mccarthy? Maybe if the Steelers had dumped their 38 year old coach for a 23 year old with a couple of years of experience, they could have taken advantage of all your reasons for havng a student coach and won the Superbowl!

You'll find that maturity makes a HUGE difference in a drive coach. Very few high school students have reached a level of maturity that allows them to respond to situations on the field and communicate them to the alliance in a manner that effectively takes advantage of the strengths of a particular alliance. Most high school students also respond much more reliably to adult directions rather than directions from another student, which many tend to treat as "requests" to be responded to at their leisure! This typically doesn't lead to a real effective alliance ....

[Bjenks548]

I am in no way saying that the average student is better then the average adult at coaching, I know there are some great adult coaches out there. Some people think that adults have an advantage over students when it comes to coaching, I personally do not and my team puts a student coach in year after year. I guess my real question is what advantage is there to an adult coach? I don't see experience as one, as a upper class student I have watched hundreds of matches and learned what is import, these games are only so complex and we get this years on the same date. Maturity? On a whole that's probably true, so don't pick a student that immature, there's lots of them that aren't. Also the argument that all teams have coaches, very true but how many of them come onto the field?