Low weight we can bring to the event

[Aren_Hill]

I've found the robot builders love the witholding allowance, the parents hate it.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by nitneylion452

This falls under GP, there's no reason why you couldn't do anything you just mentioned, but because of GP, you really really ought not do that. FIRST lays out rules that are *impossible* to enforce, but again, GP steps in and saves the day.

The rules explicitly allow behavior. It is not "un-GP" to do something the Manual plainly tells you that you can do.

[nitneylion452]

Just want to say this. My original interpretation of the rule was a little unclear thanks in part to two things: 1) Last year was my and my team's rookie year and 2) the example they give in the manual isn't very good.

Thanks everyone for the clarification of this rule. It's sure going to help quite a bit.

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by Aren_Hill

I've found the robot builders love the witholding allowance, the parents hate it.

My wife isn't a huge fan of it either... She liked it more when ship date came and went, and then I actually got to see her for a week or two before competition. As it is, we spend literally days without seeing each other (except when one of us is unconscious) and communicating through e-mail and text messaging -- this includes both our anniversary and, of course, Valentine's Day...

...but she knows that if we want to be in the hunt for the top spot, we have to put in the time, and I'm lead mentor, so I'm in the hot seat.

I'm a lucky man! (But I'd still like to see a 'no withholding allowance' change to the rules for 2012... It evens things up for first week vs. later regionals, too.)

[nitneylion452]

Originally Posted by pfreivald

... It evens things up for first week vs. later regionals, too.)

I don't think so. Week 1 regional competitors are all in the same boat. They're the first ones on the field to play the game. When they're done, they can start redesigning some mechanisms for their next regional and/or the championship. Since it's 30 lbs at each competition, there's no real advantage given to a later regional vs an early one.

[big1boom]

Last year my team took advantage of the upped withholding allowance to bring in a new robot. During Midwest we placed 2nd to last, with a robot that could barely move. Over our Spring break we built an entirely new frame, switched to mecanum, and rebuilt our kicker. To fit in the 65 pound limit last year, we had to take apart our transmissions, mecanum wheels, and pneumatics (COTS parts don't count towards the weight limit). On Thursday at 10,000 Lakes we put the puzzle back together, and managed to place 7th out of 63 teams.

This year, with the 30lbs withholding, we are probably not going to be using it quite as extensively as last year.

[Bob Steele]

Originally Posted by nitneylion452

I don't think so. Week 1 regional competitors are all in the same boat. They're the first ones on the field to play the game. When they're done, they can start redesigning some mechanisms for their next regional and/or the championship. Since it's 30 lbs at each competition, there's no real advantage given to a later regional vs an early one.

I think you missed his point. a NO WITHHOLDING RULE would even up the regionals.... That way everyone plays with what they "brung" in the crate or bag... or fixes it on Thursday...

As you mentioned with a 30 lb allowance you can work longer until your regional comes up...

i can certainly remember when they told us we couldn't even work on programming after ship date ...

Times have changed

[WizenedEE]

Originally Posted by Bob Steele

I think you missed his point. a NO WITHHOLDING RULE would even up the regionals.... That way everyone plays with what they "brung" in the crate or bag... or fixes it on Thursday...

As you mentioned with a 30 lb allowance you can work longer until your regional comes up...

With a lack of a withholding amount, I don't really think it would even out the regionals. For the teams that went to, say, a regional every week, they would have five (or so) Thursdays to improve their robot, whereas a team that only went to one regional would only get one extra day.

That said, 30 lbs is definitely enough to do some improvements.

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by Bob Steele

I think you missed his point. a NO WITHHOLDING RULE would even up the regionals.... That way everyone plays with what they "brung" in the crate or bag... or fixes it on Thursday...

No it wouldn't. In fact, it would have the exact opposite effect.

Teams like 71, could (and have) built an entirely new robot in the pits on Thursday using only raw materials, while most other teams could maybe fix something and that's about it. With the withholding allowance, any team can work on their spare/upgrade parts at their own pace, in their own facilities, which makes it much easier for regular teams to make performance upgrades. At the same time, teams who have literally entire machine shops in their pits, had a much easier time fixing parts or making upgrades, while those with hand drills and files struggled. The entire reason they began allowing the withholding allowance was because of the reuse of the control system and to make it easier for low- and mid-tier teams to compete with the capability of top-tier teams.

Back under the old non-withholding allowance rules, I remember a lot of fabricating in our pits of "questionable" safety, mostly due to too many people and not enough space in the pits. The worst was when we were at NJ Regional in 2004, where we probably built half our robot there. The whole thing was like playing Twister with cordless drill/hole saws, a drill press, band saw, and heat gun. I never want to do that again. Withholding allowance allows us to fabricate parts in much safer conditions in our school's shop. In fact, due to the withholding allowance, we've drastically cut down on the number of tools and equipment we bring to competitions now, and overall have a much less cluttered pit.

Besides, if you look back on anything you've already made and can't find any flaws that can be improved, you're doing it wrong.