Can we use globe motors this year?

[fox46]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

I am supposed to be afraid of offending the FIRST and BaneBot gods? This is an open forum and I am entitled to my opinion. Futhermore, teams have paid significant sums of money to compete in this competition. FIRST delivers a product and we expect it to be of the highest quality. These "slippery slopes" although possibly offensive and seemingly ungrateful representations of people's dissatisfaction are what help improve the FIRST product.

All other mechanism shafts on our robot spin well over 1000 rpm at nominal load.

I hope you don't have an arm on your robot.

I agree, the power is nice but not if you can't use it. Why not go for more motors like the CIMs with a reasonable 5000RPM output? - The answer is they're more expensive and the temptation to turn down a free set of motors is irresistable to the KOP designers. If the BaneBot motors were indeed a donation, then why did they have to get rid of all the other motor options? Why not improve the KOP and make it more diverse rather than saying "Oh, well we have these four motors... that should be enough..."

[ratdude747]

free is free... you want to pay extra for non-free motors? FIRST isn't made out of money.

maybe AM will make a compatible planetary next year... it can't be that hard...

[fox46]

you want to pay extra for non-free motors? FIRST isn't made out of money.

Yes- yes I would. Very much so. BaneBot gearboxes arent free either and so far we have blown over $300 on gearboxes we likely won't even use.

The BaneBot motor set retails for about $40 straight from their site. YES I would most definitely pay $40 if it had meant we could keep the old motors and have the BBs too. FIRST doesnt even have to supply the motors- For all I care they don't have to give us any motors at all- just provide us with a fast reliable and expedient way to buy them. These components are DIRT cheap! Especially when purchased in bulk quantitites. Why do you think BaneBots got into supplying FIRST with motors? They retail on their site for between $5 and $20 and thats including a markup for their business so you can imagine how cheap their FOB (fresh off the boat) cost is. The same applies to motors of the past. They really aren't that expensive. Even the CIM retails on BB's site for $28.

To reiterate- YES I have no problem buying all the KOP motors if it means we get a greater variety to choose from.

[MrForbes]

You never could buy a Globe motor.....

[Mr.G]

Originally Posted by squirrel

You never could buy a Globe motor.....

This is a false statement. I have ordered them prior years many times.

Originally Posted by fox46

I have to say I too am extremely dissapointed with banebots but also with FIRST for eliminating all the great motor options we used to have- Two FP motors, Globe motors, Van door, Keyang, seat motors. KOPs from the past used to have such a variety of power options, now all we have are little screamers that whizz along at 20000 RPM (aside from the sacred CIMs). I am sure it has made life much harder for many rookie teams and those short on resources.

It is my firm belief that banebots donated the motors to FIRST in hopes of it generating business for their company. What do you do with a motor that has a 20000 RPM output? The only logical solution given our weight and size restrictions is a planetary reduction. Who has the planetary reductions?

Unfortunately I don't think Banebots anticipated the demand for their product and as a result the teams are paying the price in lost build time. I applaud Banebots for donating the motors for the KOP but I am furious that due to a lack of other options we have essentially been forced to buy their products to build our robots. What's next? CIMs replaced by RS775s? All they have to do is donate a couple more RS775s with some CIMulators and FIRST will nix the CIMS. Then they have a monopoly on the motor supply to all teams and we are at their mercy.

Anyway, I have to get back to dissassembling cordless drills and trying to retrofit globe gearboxes......

I agree with this. We have noticed a large reduction in the amount of stuff we get in the kits without a reduction in kit cost also.

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by Mr.G

This is a false statement. I have ordered them prior years many times.

Where from? how long ago?

The Banebots transmissions are a hot item, I wonder why that is?. Looks like it's time for someone else to get into the small planetary transmission business, if BB can't keep up. There could be money to be made! Their transmissions fit standard motors...there's nothing proprietary about the motors they sell. That's probably why they are so inexpensive.

Art's right about the slippery slope thing...claiming that we won't be able to use CIMs in the future for our drivetrains based on the fact that we get 4 Banebots motors in the kit this year, is kind of ludicrous.

[Matt C]

Originally Posted by squirrel

The Banebots transmissions are a hot item, I wonder why that is?. Looks like it's time for someone else to get into the small planetary transmission business, if BB can't keep up. There could be money to be made! Their transmissions fit standard motors...there's nothing proprietary about the motors they sell. That's probably why they are so inexpensive.

It's be nice to invest some capital into tooling and designs for comparable transmissions, but then of course we could always not get the BB motors in next year's kit.

[MrForbes]

yup.

Where did the Globe motors come from? Were they donated? How much do regular production motors like that cost through normal distribution channels? The Globe is a nice heavy motor, but it's not something I'd want to be buying 8,000 of at normal cost every year.

Perhaps the GDC ought to consider defining a set of standard motor interfaces...the assortment of BB motors this year sort of does that, and continues a trend over the past few years.

[Matt C]

Originally Posted by squirrel

yup.

Where did the Globe motors come from? Were they donated? How much do regular production motors like that cost through normal distribution channels? The Globe is a nice heavy motor, but it's not something I'd want to be buying 8,000 of at normal cost every year.

I believe the Globe motors were used in automatic 4x4 transfer cases, but I've never confirmed it.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=24540

[MrForbes]

It's my understanding that Globe made (or had surplus?) a special motor that was very close to the one used in transfer cases used in certain GM models, and that you could buy one that was almost the right one from GM, but Globe would not sell them, they only donated. But I could be wrong.

My main point is that the Globe is not commonly available, it's hard to interface, and it's only available in one size and ratio. It's not anywhere close to being an ideal robot motor. The Banebots motors are...although because of the variety of motors and transmissions available, and since there's no way for the company to anticipate what the specific parts demand will be (they just know it will be large), they can't make all the transmissions ahead of time.

There's no way to please everyone.

[fox46]

I think you completely missed the point of his post. The link provided did not say "you're not allowed to dislike FIRST's decisions", it said that saying something is bad because other unrelated decisions would be bad is a logical fallacy.

I assumed he was referring to my post as the start of a slippery slope statement which would initiate a chain of events. I now see what he was referring to- but it is not a slipery slope fallacy. THIS year FIRST accepted the donation of four BB motors and got rid of many of the older ones. My insinuation is that should BB donate a pile of RS775s and CIMulators, based on the precident set this year, I argue that they would be tempted to get rid of the CIMs. It is not a logical fallacy since a precident has been set. A precident that was preceeded by the Denso motors replacing the previous window motors and keyang, the CIMs replacing the Drills etc. When FIRST is offered a better deal on KOP parts, they take it in favor of their previous components.

Ah the days of the 300W+ Bosch drill motors I forgot about the high torque servo! I wish I had one of those now...

[EricH]

And now you're on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumen...ng_a_precedent.

I'm not saying that I necessarily disagree with you on that, though.

I would hope that if BaneBots decided to donate a pile of CIM-U-Lators and motors, FIRST would not ditch the CIMs, especially not right away. If they did do that, they'd need to bring in another motor with lots of power and high reliability, or the complaining over Minibot rulings that didn't seem to make a lot of sense a few weeks ago would be a mild drizzle in winter compared to the outcry that would ensue. When the drills left, the CIM number was stepped up. When the Keyang left, more Densos were allowed. The Van Door motor didn't really have a replacement, much to the grief of quite a few people. The Globes were replaced with BB motors, as was an FP.

I think we're more likely to see CIMs and window motors kept and motors similar to the BB motors gradually disappear.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by EricH

The Globes were replaced with BB motors, as was an FP.

Just to be pedantic - the Globes were replaced with Window motors. When the Globes left the 2010 kit, we got 4 Window motors.

Personally I would be fine with the BB motor combination, if there was another supplier for the motors than Banebots. We got one of each in the kit but no one's going to use 1 BB motor. Everyone's going to use the 775s or 550s depending on application, with the others used sparingly. I would have liked 2 RS-775s and 2 RS-550s out of the box.

Rather than demand free / KOP transmissions for these motors I'd be content asking that they come with a pinion from now on so that you don't need a press to use the motor with a custom gearbox (i.e. to ream / install a COTS pinion)

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by fox46

I assumed he was referring to my post as the start of a slippery slope statement which would initiate a chain of events. I now see what he was referring to- but it is not a slipery slope fallacy. THIS year FIRST accepted the donation of four BB motors and got rid of many of the older ones. My insinuation is that should BB donate a pile of RS775s and CIMulators, based on the precident set this year, I argue that they would be tempted to get rid of the CIMs. It is not a logical fallacy since a precident has been set. A precident that was preceeded by the Denso motors replacing the previous window motors and keyang, the CIMs replacing the Drills etc. When FIRST is offered a better deal on KOP parts, they take it in favor of their previous components.

Ah the days of the 300W+ Bosch drill motors I forgot about the high torque servo! I wish I had one of those now...

The BaneBot motors will never replace the CIM motors in the KOP. While BaneBot motors may be capable of high power outputs under the right conditions, they are just not rugged enough to survive use in a typical FRC drive train without smoking. The CIM motor right now is probably the perfect mix of power output, ruggedness, adaptability, and overall cost for FRC drivetrain use.

The BaneBot motors likely replaced the older Globes, window motors, Van doors, etc because of one reason: all those older motors were at the end of their production runs, and the companies just donated/sold the remaining ones to FIRST. This is why is was nearly impossible to buy replacements for these motors anywhere; the only way to get more of these motors was to trade with another team. FIRST "got rid of" these older motors simply because they exhausted their donated stockpile, and could not get more from the donating companies. This is why I think the Denso window motor's days are numbered as well, as they have been unavailable for purchase for two years now.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Guys,
I use Globe motors in satellite dishes here at the station. I don't know exactly what influenced their absence from the KOP but I can tell you this much. Globe changed their policies on motors and parts numbers a few years back. In the past you had to choose a part number that included a motor (size, speed, power) and a transmission (reduction, shaft output, enclosure and mounting) from a long list of parts. The last time I had to replace our feedhorn drive, I found that the part number I had used for years was no longer valid. Instead, I would have to custom order a motor, which Globe would then assemble for me from a custom part number that represented all the options I needed. Since Globe no longer has premade motor/transmission combos on the shelf, I am guessing that they also cannot donate such an item from stock as they have in the past. Sometimes the KOP changes simply because the part no longer exists.