Can we use globe motors this year?

[MrForbes]

It's my understanding that Globe made (or had surplus?) a special motor that was very close to the one used in transfer cases used in certain GM models, and that you could buy one that was almost the right one from GM, but Globe would not sell them, they only donated. But I could be wrong.

My main point is that the Globe is not commonly available, it's hard to interface, and it's only available in one size and ratio. It's not anywhere close to being an ideal robot motor. The Banebots motors are...although because of the variety of motors and transmissions available, and since there's no way for the company to anticipate what the specific parts demand will be (they just know it will be large), they can't make all the transmissions ahead of time.

There's no way to please everyone.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

Seriously, with the FP and "choose any four" BaneBot offer, I absolutely love the motor selection this year. There are up to nine motors you can use on your robot that output over 250 Watts each! Compared to ~85 Watts for Globe, and less than 50 W for any past Window motor, this year's motor selection is the best I've ever seen (since 2004). No other year has a team been able to throw over 1000 Watts into a manipulator and not sweat taking away drive train performance. While some may question the sanity of one kiloWatt manipulators, if you want to fly on water, you need power!

I think you're understating the value of the Globe. Yes, it had less peak power than other motors, but the Globe motor was probably the best "slow" motor in the kit.

You can build a 4-5 pound transmission with big sprocket reduction to make an FP drive an arm, or you can just plug a Globe motor into a modified Toughbox. You could run a BB motor with impossible to find BB transmissions to drive rollers on a claw, or you could plug a Globe directly into your roller claw and be done with it.

The Globe notably got medium to slow speed motion done reliably and easily without the weight of a heavier motor/transmission combo. If I could, I'd trade every Window motor in the kit for a Globe or two this year.

[MrForbes]

I suggest you talk to the Globe company and ask them to donate a lot more motors. But please please please ask them to put a standard output shaft on it, and more mounting holes! and it would be really nice if we could add or remove stages of the transmission more easily.

[fox46]

I think you completely missed the point of his post. The link provided did not say "you're not allowed to dislike FIRST's decisions", it said that saying something is bad because other unrelated decisions would be bad is a logical fallacy.

I assumed he was referring to my post as the start of a slippery slope statement which would initiate a chain of events. I now see what he was referring to- but it is not a slipery slope fallacy. THIS year FIRST accepted the donation of four BB motors and got rid of many of the older ones. My insinuation is that should BB donate a pile of RS775s and CIMulators, based on the precident set this year, I argue that they would be tempted to get rid of the CIMs. It is not a logical fallacy since a precident has been set. A precident that was preceeded by the Denso motors replacing the previous window motors and keyang, the CIMs replacing the Drills etc. When FIRST is offered a better deal on KOP parts, they take it in favor of their previous components.

Ah the days of the 300W+ Bosch drill motors I forgot about the high torque servo! I wish I had one of those now...

[EricH]

And now you're on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumen...ng_a_precedent.

I'm not saying that I necessarily disagree with you on that, though.

I would hope that if BaneBots decided to donate a pile of CIM-U-Lators and motors, FIRST would not ditch the CIMs, especially not right away. If they did do that, they'd need to bring in another motor with lots of power and high reliability, or the complaining over Minibot rulings that didn't seem to make a lot of sense a few weeks ago would be a mild drizzle in winter compared to the outcry that would ensue. When the drills left, the CIM number was stepped up. When the Keyang left, more Densos were allowed. The Van Door motor didn't really have a replacement, much to the grief of quite a few people. The Globes were replaced with BB motors, as was an FP.

I think we're more likely to see CIMs and window motors kept and motors similar to the BB motors gradually disappear.

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by fox46

I assumed he was referring to my post as the start of a slippery slope statement which would initiate a chain of events. I now see what he was referring to- but it is not a slipery slope fallacy. THIS year FIRST accepted the donation of four BB motors and got rid of many of the older ones. My insinuation is that should BB donate a pile of RS775s and CIMulators, based on the precident set this year, I argue that they would be tempted to get rid of the CIMs. It is not a logical fallacy since a precident has been set. A precident that was preceeded by the Denso motors replacing the previous window motors and keyang, the CIMs replacing the Drills etc. When FIRST is offered a better deal on KOP parts, they take it in favor of their previous components.

Ah the days of the 300W+ Bosch drill motors I forgot about the high torque servo! I wish I had one of those now...

The BaneBot motors will never replace the CIM motors in the KOP. While BaneBot motors may be capable of high power outputs under the right conditions, they are just not rugged enough to survive use in a typical FRC drive train without smoking. The CIM motor right now is probably the perfect mix of power output, ruggedness, adaptability, and overall cost for FRC drivetrain use.

The BaneBot motors likely replaced the older Globes, window motors, Van doors, etc because of one reason: all those older motors were at the end of their production runs, and the companies just donated/sold the remaining ones to FIRST. This is why is was nearly impossible to buy replacements for these motors anywhere; the only way to get more of these motors was to trade with another team. FIRST "got rid of" these older motors simply because they exhausted their donated stockpile, and could not get more from the donating companies. This is why I think the Denso window motor's days are numbered as well, as they have been unavailable for purchase for two years now.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I think you're understating the value of the Globe. Yes, it had less peak power than other motors, but the Globe motor was probably the best "slow" motor in the kit.

Not to mention, that in a pinch, you could make a "fast" Globe by modifying the transmissions and either removing or negating a stage...

And if memory serves me correctly, you could stall a Globe for days (Not literally) without worrying about it burning out.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by EricH

The Globes were replaced with BB motors, as was an FP.

Just to be pedantic - the Globes were replaced with Window motors. When the Globes left the 2010 kit, we got 4 Window motors.

Personally I would be fine with the BB motor combination, if there was another supplier for the motors than Banebots. We got one of each in the kit but no one's going to use 1 BB motor. Everyone's going to use the 775s or 550s depending on application, with the others used sparingly. I would have liked 2 RS-775s and 2 RS-550s out of the box.

Rather than demand free / KOP transmissions for these motors I'd be content asking that they come with a pinion from now on so that you don't need a press to use the motor with a custom gearbox (i.e. to ream / install a COTS pinion)

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Personally I would be fine with the BB motor combination, if there was another supplier for the motors than Banebots. We got one of each in the kit but no one's going to use 1 BB motor. Everyone's going to use the 775s or 550s depending on application, with the others used sparingly. I would have liked 2 RS-775s and 2 RS-550s out of the box.

Ordering the motors is easy. It's their gearbox lead time that gets you.

The best solution would be to introduce some free-market competition, like if AndyMark were to introduce a COTS adapter plate to mount the 540/550 or 775 on one of their planetary gearboxes, for the teams that don't have easy access to a machine shop to make/modify their own.

[IndySam]

It's all part of the challenge. Every year it's "here's your energy converting devices, use them the best way possible." It doesn't matter if it because of vendor donations or GDC decisions, it is what it is.

We all have favorite motors but when we loose them we are taken out of comfort zone, that is a good thing.

Some day we may all loose our beloved CIM's too, maybe next year, who knows.

But it will all be part of the challenge that is FRC.

[fox46]

And now you're on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumen...ng_a_precedent.

The precedent has already been set? How is this applicable?

An argument from precedent is a claim that: "We should not do ***** because future people might misuse the precedent of doing ***** for the first time in order to justify doing something else."

In the case of the motors, ***** has already been done.

annnndddd......

http://thenightcheese.com/wp-content..._and_robot.jpg

Come now children, let us talk of robots, not critical thinking class.

[Bob Steele]

I personally like the choice of motors in the kit.
It is a good balance and the BB motors allow quite abit of versatility.

The only change I would have made is to allow 2 FP motors instead of one.

For years we have had to struggle to find spare or replacement motors for a bunch of reasons... go out and try to buy a van door motor... or at least the right one...

For many years you couldn't get the correct FP motors either.

Now, we have a source of almost unlimited spares and replacements (CIMS and BANEBOTS)
We can get spares and play around in the offseason with different configurations.

As far as gearboxes... we are using the AM planetary gearboxes with the 550's ... and they work fine... I know other teams are using the 775's with the AM planetary.

so OK the AM gearbox is a little pricey at nearly 3 times what the CIMULATOR sells for... but it will work...

Back when I started we got no gearboxes...then we got a plastic sort of one for Stack-Attack...

Everyone should stop complaining... we have a great selection...

Building a robot is supposed to be a tough challenge... you really want to have bolt-on solutions? I greatly appreciate what AndyMark does and also Banebots... but it wasn't that long ago that neither existed... In some ways I think that was better...

Do some engineering...
improvise, adapt, overcome...

remember surrender is not in our creed!

that is all
Semper Fi

[Nailo2532]

I was looking in the manual and am probobly just not seeing it, but are the banebot motors allowed on the minibot?

[AndyB]

Originally Posted by Nailo2532

I was looking in the manual and am probobly just not seeing it, but are the banebot motors allowed on the minibot?

R92. No.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Guys,
I use Globe motors in satellite dishes here at the station. I don't know exactly what influenced their absence from the KOP but I can tell you this much. Globe changed their policies on motors and parts numbers a few years back. In the past you had to choose a part number that included a motor (size, speed, power) and a transmission (reduction, shaft output, enclosure and mounting) from a long list of parts. The last time I had to replace our feedhorn drive, I found that the part number I had used for years was no longer valid. Instead, I would have to custom order a motor, which Globe would then assemble for me from a custom part number that represented all the options I needed. Since Globe no longer has premade motor/transmission combos on the shelf, I am guessing that they also cannot donate such an item from stock as they have in the past. Sometimes the KOP changes simply because the part no longer exists.