Team Update #10

[GaryVoshol]

The GDC taketh away, but the GDC also giveth. Nobody has yet commented on this very important change:

<G30> Any ROBOT used during a MATCH must be in compliance with all ROBOT Rules (as defined in Section 4 – The Robot). Violation: RED CARD PENALTY plus a potential YELLOW CARD

This restores the rule to what it was last year (<S04> in 2010). Without it, you could have received a RED CARD for something as simple as a BUMPER becoming loose and dragging outside the BUMPER ZONE.

[Zuelu562]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

The GDC taketh away, but the GDC also giveth. Nobody has yet commented on this very important change:

This restores the rule to what it was last year (<S04> in 2010). Without it, you could have received a RED CARD for something as simple as a BUMPER becoming loose and dragging outside the BUMPER ZONE.

again, nice catch Gary. I noticed that too and i almost went "really?" but then I realized the application you are referring to.

To be honest, this one really should be ref discretion, penalty for stuff like bumpers getting rammed so hard they fall off, yellow or red cards for repeated and obvious intention to break rules, etc.

[MagiChau]

I don't find too much offense with the new rule on defense. I believe this is to prevent doing things like stopping the entire other alliance from reaching towers for end game or scoring ever again after the team doing the blocking took the lead. It really depends what they define as flow in the competition.

[mwtidd]

Also the loading station is a natural choking point. If there were 2 robots, there is a good chance they could have kept a robot trapped in there.

I think its a fair rule in that it prevents other teams from rendering a robot useless.

Such a strategy would have had the same effect as an infinite pin.

[XaulZan11]

Can you have a 2 on 1 defense with this rule?

[JVN]

I like the intent of the change, but I think it will be called rarely, inconsistently, and somewhat arbitrarily.

Maybe we'll be able to convince the head refs in Dallas and San Antonio that any double defense on 148 constitutes interrupting the flow of the match?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by JVN

I like the intent of the change, but I think it will be called rarely, inconsistently, and somewhat arbitrarily.

Maybe we'll be able to convince the head refs in Dallas and San Antonio that any double defense on 148 constitutes interrupting the flow of the match?

You'd have a case on triple defense on 148 or some of the other perennial powerhouses, John. Double defense? Maybe, but I'd assume that you guys are to busy scoring through it to pay any attention--and anybody playing any less than double defense is getting beaten handily anyway.

That's kind of my fear, too--if I'm parking a robot between my towers and playing defense on any robot trying to go through that gap, am I going to be called for blocking the flow of the game? I hope not! But I would not be surprised if any team doing that was be called.

[pfreivald]

Love this update!

I was dreading the 'score first then shut down all scoring' tactic, because it commits one of the worst sins of FIRST: It renders the game *boring*.

I know, I know, some people will disagree with me on what does and does not constitute 'boring', but I think of things from the perspective of the casual spectator. It MUST be exciting to non-participant spectators (e.g. friends, family, classmates, and invitees of those on the teams) in order to fulfill it's mandate of changing the culture.

Lunacy: reasonable fun to play, boring to watch as a casual observer (because it was too hard to keep track of everything going on if you weren't nails-on with the rules). GDC solution: hire people who specialize in entertainment. And GOOD FOR THEM.

Logomotion: both boring to play AND boring to watch if this strategy is enacted.

Defense isn't outlawed, you just have to give the other teams a chance.

Woot, I say. Woot!

[PayneTrain]

After the unintentionally defensive game "Breakaway", which followed the best FIRST game ever (abbreviated as "Lunacy"), I assume that the GDC wished to make the game a real shootout, which I enjoy.

Lunacy was hard to keep track of scoring, but everyone cheered when there was a mass dumping of balls into the trailer, or the super cells got in in a close match. The fact that the tally was too hard to keep up with caused so much suspense. It was borderline impossible to play defense in Lunacy; while in Breakaway a team always defaulted to a defensive position. Also, 2010 could really get lagged down by the penalties, specifically the return penalty. There seem to be more penalties this year than there are pounds on the robot, so I fear that.

Offense was encouraged already because your secondary score (Qualifying Score?), which operates as a tiebreaker from your Ranking Score, is based off of the losing team's unpenalized/penalized score, depending on which side of the match the team landed.

However, I don't know how much tubes will factor in to final scores when compared to the minibot race. The Best FIRST Game Ever and Breakaway were able to remedy this issue. I just get this feeling that a close 40-35 minibot race will be outdone in the qualifiers by tube scoring.
---
On another note:
It sounds odd, but I have been waiting for the minibot race to go 25-20-15-10, or something even smaller. The tube score, I believe, will be rendered almost meaningless in the qualifiers.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

After the unintentionally defensive game "Breakaway", which followed the best FIRST game ever (abbreviated as "Lunacy"), I assume that the GDC wished to make the game a real shootout, which I enjoy.

However, I don't know how much tubes will factor in to final scores when compared to the minibot race. The Best FIRST Game Ever and Breakaway were able to remedy this issue. I just get this feeling that a close 40-35 minibot race will be outdone in the qualifiers by tube scoring.

It sounds odd, but I have been waiting for the minibot race to go 25-20-15-10, or something even smaller.

This is somewhat of a repeat of how stack attack played - the end game was more important than the game preceding it. I suspect the minibots will be 80% of the game this year. After all, a GOOD robot with no defense will likely score 3 tubes during a good game. A mobile minibot will score that in every match.

If anyone hasn't figured it out, that minibot is far more important than hanging in 10, the supercells in 09, putting the balls up top in 08, and I'd say more important than '07's ramps as well.

[PayneTrain]

'10 hanging, '09 supercells are barely even comparable. Hanging and Supercells would contribute in a range of 15-30%, in extreme cases, of the match. Minibots can contribute 45-65% of the final tallies. Being a junior and having those two experiences to look at, I find the minibot scoring ridiculous. A really good rampbot in 07 would get propelled into the Einstein field, while a minibot race victory, which can come down to chance, might keep a high-quality bot out of regionals.

I know this isn't the place to talk strategy, but I feel that the field will be chaotic with zone and lane lines intersecting and the polebases and innertubes scattered around the ground. Scoring on a peg also requires higher precision for the standard scoring than any of the last three games--even our buddy Overdrive.

Throwing a ball over a rack, dumping balls in a trailer, pushing balls into a wide hole, and now we have "Hang the tube on the thin peg--oh wait, no, take the higher one--no, make the logo!" Scoring will be low before endgame.

Originally Posted by xSAWxBLADEx

with you saying Lunacy was the best game ever...Have youve seen Aim High being played? (not on the computer)

Wish I could have. It draws a lot of parallels to Lunacy, chiefly being high-scoring chaos. There were some odd scoring rules, but I never saw Aim High in person. :/ Looks like it would be loads of fun.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

. A really good rampbot in 07 would get propelled into the Einstein field

Anyone else wish making Einstein was this easy?

[Molten]

So...you can play defense on your own, but you can't work as a team. That makes perfect sense for a team game. I guess FIRST is catching onto how to get rid of defense strategies. Get rid of teams. I usually try to be understanding on most of their decisions, but this is the most ridiculous ruling I've heard from them in a while. If GDC is reading this, you should have an idea to eliminate defense as that seems to be your goal. Afterall, I remember in 2007 that the most cooperation I saw was on the defense side of cutting the opponents off from scoring long chains. I guess this is about 4 years worth of steps backward.

[xSAWxBLADEx]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

After the unintentionally defensive game "Breakaway", which followed the best FIRST game ever (abbreviated as "Lunacy"), I assume that the GDC wished to make the game a real shootout, which I enjoy.

Lunacy was hard to keep track of scoring, but everyone cheered when there was a mass dumping of balls into the trailer, or the super cells got in in a close match. The fact that the tally was too hard to keep up with caused so much suspense. It was borderline impossible to play defense in Lunacy; while in Breakaway a team always defaulted to a defensive position. Also, 2010 could really get lagged down by the penalties, specifically the return penalty. There seem to be more penalties this year than there are pounds on the robot, so I fear that.

Offense was encouraged already because your secondary score (Qualifying Score?), which operates as a tiebreaker from your Ranking Score, is based off of the losing team's unpenalized/penalized score, depending on which side of the match the team landed.

However, I don't know how much tubes will factor in to final scores when compared to the minibot race. The Best FIRST Game Ever and Breakaway were able to remedy this issue. I just get this feeling that a close 40-35 minibot race will be outdone in the qualifiers by tube scoring.
---
On another note:
It sounds odd, but I have been waiting for the minibot race to go 25-20-15-10, or something even smaller. The tube score, I believe, will be rendered almost meaningless in the qualifiers.

with you saying Lunacy was the best game ever...Have youve seen Aim High being played? (not on the computer)

[mwtidd]

Originally Posted by xSAWxBLADEx

with you saying Lunacy was the best game ever...Have youve seen Aim High being played? (not on the computer)

Have you seen first frenzy played? Now that game was epic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvDGWd1IhZs

Man do I miss 2v2, back when you could tell what was actually going on in a game.