Will this year's game be a war of attrition?

[martin417]

As I look at posted robot pictures, I begin to worry about robot longevity this year. The parts provided in the KOP, if used as-is, will produce a ~16 FPS robot. I see that most teams are gearing for around that same speed, either using shifting transmissions or the KOP parts. In the past, kit-bots, and most non kit bots have been geared for between 9 and 12 fps. In other words the robots will be very fast this year.

Defense near the home zone will be dangerous due to team update #6, so expect VIGOROUS defense around midfield.

Team update #9 adds:

High speed accidental collisions may occur during the MATCH and are an expected part of LOGO MOTION™. ROBOTS place mechanisms outside of the BUMPER PERIMETER at their own risk; no penalties will be assigned for contact between two such extended mechanisms.

Most of the robot pictures I have seen posted show mechanisms outside the frame perimeter. By the end of any given regional, I would not be surprised to see a significant proportion of those robots with no usable manipulator.

Team updtae #9 also added:

A ROBOT with a mechanism outside of its BUMPER PERIMETER may be penalized under this rule if it appears they are using that MECHANISM to purposefully contact another ROBOT inside its FRAME PERIMETER. Regardless of intent, a ROBOT with a MECHANISM outside its BUMPER PERIMETER that causes damage to another ROBOT inside of its FRAME PERIMETER will be penalized.
Repeated or egregious violations of this rule will earn the offending ROBOT a YELLOW CARD.

This is one of the reasons our team probably will not attempt to pick up a tube from the floor. As it now stands, no part of our robot ever extends outside the frame perimeter. (except during end-game)

In the finals, it may turn out that the last robot still working is the winner.

I'm not Car Nack, but I am hereby predicting mayhem.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by martin417

As I look at posted robot pictures, I begin to worry about robot longevity this year. The parts provided in the KOP, if used as-is, will produce a ~16 FPS robot.

If the robot weighs 120lbs, even with 4 CIMs it likely won't have nearly enough room to accelerate to anything approaching that speed.

[IKE]

Originally Posted by martin417

Most of the robot pictures I have seen posted show mechanisms outside the frame perimeter. By the end of any given regional, I would not be surprised to see a significant proportion of those robots with no usable manipulator.

This is another good reason to have a detachable manipulator and a spare. It won't help you for the match it gets broken, but hopefully you will be in better shape for the next match.

[MaxMax161]

We know our manipulator is going to get the s!@# kicked out of it so I think we are using some of our 30 lbs with 4 extra. I know as soon as the doors open our manipulator people will get to building as many extra as they can.

[Chexposito]

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

If the robot weighs 120lbs, even with 4 CIMs it likely won't have nearly enough room to accelerate to anything approaching that speed.

teams aquire this speed relatively easily and quickly, we did this with the additional weight of the bumpers and minibot. we did this speed with a 150 lb robot in like week 2 in less than 20 feet...

[AndyH]

Thanks this is interesting.
The reasons you lay out here is why our students designed a tube pickup tool that when the robot travels the tube is inside the bumper zone. May help keep the bot together. That and my annoying speeches about make it TOUGH.
Tough is something that the team has started focusing on in the last few years, because mentor Andy won't shut-up about it.

[martin417]

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

If the robot weighs 120lbs, even with 4 CIMs it likely won't have nearly enough room to accelerate to anything approaching that speed.

The field is ~50 feet long. With a two-speed transmission, coming from the feeder station with a full head of steam, I expect a well made robot to be approaching that speed by midfield. One strategy to avoid defense is speed. if a robot comes screaming out of its lane, heading towards the home zone at ~16 FPS, any robot that gets in the way does so at its own peril. And don't assume 120 LB.s The robot weighs in at 120, the battery 10, the bumpers another 20, and up to 15 for the minibot gives a max weight of 165 Lb. or 75 Kg. At 15 FPS (4.6 M/s), you will have 616 ft-lb (835 N-M) of energy, all dissipated in milliseconds. Even if you don't have anything outside your frame perimeter, that is a lot of energy to absorb without damage.

[Vikesrock]

Absolutely, robots with shifters can certainly reach 15-16 FPS. My point was that the KOP bot will not if it weighs anywhere near 120 without battery bumpers and minibot.

If I did the math right the KOP setup (at 148lbs total) will take over 100 ft. to accelerate to top speed. Adding an additional pair of CIMs still puts it at over 60ft. to reach its top speed.

[Matt C]

"Back in the day, we didn't have those weenie bumpers!"

[JohnBoucher]

Originally Posted by Matt C

"Back in the day, we didn't have those weenie bumpers!"

Yea.... When Robots were Robots. Metal against Metal. Puts a big smile on my face also

[Brandon Holley]

Regarding picking up from the floor:

Maybe in midfield it's a risky proposition, but picking up tubes in your scoring zone or human player lanes seems like a no brainer to me. You're protected from being touched in those areas.

-Brando

[Jared Russell]

There will be some big hits, that's for sure. We will be bringing many spare manipulators to competition for this reason. We will also be devoting a large share of time this week and with our practice bot to train the operator to get the manipulator out of the way as quickly as possible.

[MrForbes]

For those robots with a long arm, I wonder how it will work driving around with the arm sticking almost straight up? There's the fun thing about the CG being relatively high, and the robot wanting to fall over during sudden maneuvers...and you have to watch out for minibot towers...and other robots with stuff sticking out up high. Especially if you're possessing a game piece.

I'm thinking our decision to use mostly all locally available materials, and a few bolts and rivets to hold it all together, might be a good decision.

[thefro526]

This is an interesting question.

Logo-motion is the First game since 2008 where Teams are pretty much allowed to expand beyond the bumper zone without restrictions other than a maximum expansion Distance. I would venture to say that the majority of teams are compromised of students that only have experience with 2009 and on (those who don't would've had to have been Freshmen in HS in 2008) and then there are hundreds of teams that have been born since 2008. It'll be interesting to see how well these teams build robots and if they understand the abuse that a mechanism will take if it leaves the bumper zone.

Well-Structured and mentored Veteran teams, I'm sure, will have few issues with machine robustness as many of them existed in the "Pre-Bumper Era" and should remember how to build a robot to take abuse. Personally, 816's robot was designed in such a way that all mechanisms that leave the bumper zone are protected while not in the safe zones, and the few other Veteran Machines I've seen thus far seem to be built with the same idea in mind.

[martin417]

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

Absolutely, robots with shifters can certainly reach 15-16 FPS. My point was that the KOP bot will not if it weighs anywhere near 120 without battery bumpers and minibot.

If I did the math right the KOP setup (at 148lbs total) will take over 100 ft. to accelerate to top speed. Adding an additional pair of CIMs still puts it at over 60ft. to reach its top speed.

I did a quick spreadsheet to estimate (and making some known erroneous assumptions, but close) I estimate that a kitbot with roughtop wheels at 150 lb.s can hit 15 FPS in less than 20 ft, and about 1/2 second.