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Unread 21-02-2011, 11:54
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LEDs connected to Solenoid Breakout. It's illegal, but why?

From the rules, it is illegal to connect anything but solenoids and the line sensors to the solenoid breakout. We have 3 LED strings, pulling about 300mA a piece. We would love to save some space and connect them to the solenoid breakout board, but guess what...

Quote:
<R60> Solenoid Breakout outputs shall be connected to pneumatic valve solenoids or photoelectric sensors, PN 42EF-D1MNAK-A2, only. No other devices shall be connected to these outputs.
Any reason why custom circuits are not allowed? It's adding unnecessary complication to our already over complicated robot.
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Unread 21-02-2011, 12:07
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Re: LEDs connected to Solenoid Breakout. It's illegal, but why?

The only reason that matters is because it is in the rules. Same reason we're not allowed to use Duct Tape on the minibot.

I can speculate that they are concerned that teams will draw too much current from the breakout and make their pneumatics uncontrollable or erratic.

Side note: a 300 mA LED is about 1 watt. This will be BLINDINGLY bright.
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Unread 21-02-2011, 12:30
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Re: LEDs connected to Solenoid Breakout. It's illegal, but why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonRotolo View Post
The only reason that matters is because it is in the rules. Same reason we're not allowed to use Duct Tape on the minibot.

I can speculate that they are concerned that teams will draw too much current from the breakout and make their pneumatics uncontrollable or erratic.

Side note: a 300 mA LED is about 1 watt. This will be BLINDINGLY bright.
Yep, they're pretty bright all put together. I think there are about 30 LEDs in the string.
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Unread 21-02-2011, 13:17
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Re: LEDs connected to Solenoid Breakout. It's illegal, but why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonRotolo View Post
I can speculate that they are concerned that teams will draw too much current from the breakout and make their pneumatics uncontrollable or erratic.
The NI 9472 Digital Sourcing Module has protection against extreme overcurrent, so you probably wouln't be able to cause any fires, but the documentation warns that at currents between 1 and 13 amps the module "may be damaged".
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Unread 21-02-2011, 14:38
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Re: LEDs connected to Solenoid Breakout. It's illegal, but why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanN View Post
From the rules, it is illegal to connect anything but solenoids and the line sensors to the solenoid breakout. We have 3 LED strings, pulling about 300mA a piece. We would love to save some space and connect them to the solenoid breakout board, but guess what...



Any reason why custom circuits are not allowed? It's adding unnecessary complication to our already over complicated robot.
Believe me, my students were a bit ticked at this as well.

The solenoid breakout is simply the BEST way to power your LED light indicators.

Unfortunately, from my reading of the rules, that would be illegal.

I agree that we would all benefit from a loosening of the rules of what can be hooked up to the solenoid breakout to include custom circuits < 500mA.
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Unread 21-02-2011, 15:16
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Re: LEDs connected to Solenoid Breakout. It's illegal, but why?

I believe the best way to handle this is to make the request in the Q&A.

The wording for the rule change that would allow this would be awkward, as the solenoid breakout can sometimes be used with the 24V rail. I would hope that the rule change would not allow using that rail for LEDs.
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Unread 01-02-2012, 08:54
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Re: LEDs connected to Solenoid Breakout. It's illegal, but why?

Does this rule apply to the 2012 season, as I can't find anything that specifically prohibits the LEDs in this year's manual?

Quote:
<R60> Solenoid Breakout outputs shall be connected to pneumatic valve solenoids or photoelectric sensors, PN 42EF-D1MNAK-A2, only. No other devices shall be connected to these outputs.
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Unread 01-02-2012, 09:10
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Re: LEDs connected to Solenoid Breakout. It's illegal, but why?

I think the applicable rule this year is:

Quote:
[R63]

Outputs from each Solenoid Breakout shall not cumulatively exceed 16W for the cRIO-FRC (8-slot) and 21W for the cRIO-FRC II (4-slot).
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Unread 01-02-2012, 09:35
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Re: LEDs connected to Solenoid Breakout. It's illegal, but why?

There are other ways to control LEDs that do not include the solenoid breakout. 300 ma is (As Alan has pointed out) excessive for the solenoid module. The manufacturer recommends 75 ma per output as a safe use of this module. It is for this reason that electric solenoid actuators or 10 watts or less can be driven from this module as well.
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Unread 01-02-2012, 10:15
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Re: LEDs connected to Solenoid Breakout. It's illegal, but why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricVanWyk View Post
I believe the best way to handle this is to make the request in the Q&A.

The wording for the rule change that would allow this would be awkward, as the solenoid breakout can sometimes be used with the 24V rail. I would hope that the rule change would not allow using that rail for LEDs.
How about something like this...

<R60> Solenoid Breakout outputs shall be connected to pneumatic valve solenoids, photoelectric sensors, PN 42EF-D1MNAK-A2, or current limited, non-game related circuits only. For non-game related circuits, a total of 3 outputs may be used only for powering decorative lighting or sound circuits that do not contribute to the robots game playing capability. These optional circuits may only be connected to a 12 volt breakout board, (24 volt operation prohibited) and must include a fast acting current limiting fuse not to exceed 500ma. For ease of inspection, the fuse should be an inline fuse connected within 8 inches of the breakout board. No other devices shall be connected to these outputs.

Note: Because optional lighting devices are not game related, and are often custom, judges are provided wide leeway to disallow such circuits. Remember to keep these circuits simple, neat, and be prepared to provide additional documentation if requested.
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Unread 01-02-2012, 10:17
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Re: LEDs connected to Solenoid Breakout. It's illegal, but why?

tsaska, that particular post was made for the 2011 season. See squirrel's post for the current rule.
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Unread 01-02-2012, 10:19
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Re: LEDs connected to Solenoid Breakout. It's illegal, but why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz View Post
There are other ways to control LEDs that do not include the solenoid breakout. 300 ma is (As Alan has pointed out) excessive for the solenoid module. The manufacturer recommends 75 ma per output as a safe use of this module. It is for this reason that electric solenoid actuators or 10 watts or less can be driven from this module as well.
I'm curious why you think a 300 ma led is excessive but an 800 ma solenoid is ok.
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Unread 01-02-2012, 10:24
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Re: LEDs connected to Solenoid Breakout. It's illegal, but why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz View Post
The manufacturer recommends 75 ma per output as a safe use of this module.
The datasheet for the Solenoid Breakout board specifies 750mA per output channel.
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Unread 01-02-2012, 12:43
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Re: LEDs connected to Solenoid Breakout. It's illegal, but why?

Sorry,
Left off the last zero. 750 ma at 12 volts is 9 watts.
Joe, I was considering the total for LEDs for three strings plus the loads likely for other devices as totaling more than one amp. As Alan reminded me last year the manufacturer has this rather odd table listing for trip modes. One of those lines for total current is this...
"1 to 6 A, Channel does not trip, Module may be damaged."
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Unread 01-02-2012, 13:34
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Re: LEDs connected to Solenoid Breakout. It's illegal, but why?

A Spike may be bulkier, but you could use one spike to switch two banks of LEDs by wiring each motor output to the positive side of the LED and running the common directly back to the PDB.
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