Solution: Variable position of cylinder in compliance with <R74>

[Roboman01]

Well, it's not much of a first post, but I just had to put in my $0.02 on this subject.



Now, why wouldn't something like that work? This is just for the control of a single cylinder; the rest of the circuit continues past the black arrow. Each check valve prevents backflow from the accumulator into the cylinder, while simultaneously allowing venting of all pressurized areas from a single valve. (Note: I was intending to use a solenoid flow-control valve, but I seem to have lost the link.)

[PAR_WIG1350]

Originally Posted by Roboman01

Well, it's not much of a first post, but I just had to put in my $0.02 on this subject.

Based on what I have read about pneumatic schematics, this looks like a fancy way of operating a cylinder in 2 positions, out or in, since when one side is pressurized, the other would be vented to the atmosphere. I considered a similar approach myself, but abandoned it when I realized there was no way to make it work properly without complex programing or trapping pressurized air in one side of the cylinder. Also, I'm not sure if solenoid flow control valves are legal, but in this configuration they certainly are since it is a second solenoid and according to <R74> only one solenoid can be used to control every commanded action of a pneumatic actuator.

[sanddrag]

I started reading this, and it seemed so complicated I just gave up. I don't typically give up at understanding things, but this just seems like so complex of a system, that perhaps the design should be reconsidered if it requires all this. Motors anyone?

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

I started reading this, and it seemed so complicated I just gave up. I don't typically give up at understanding things, but this just seems like so complex of a system, that perhaps the design should be reconsidered if it requires all this. Motors anyone?

I'm normally a guy who understands stuff, but I'm also lost here. I'd need to see it I guess.

How about a mechanical stop for that 'middle' position? A tiny servo moving a locking pin/bar could manage that.

[sanddrag]

After reading this a second time, I totally get it now. In theory, it's actually a rather nifty idea. Not nearly as complicated as I thought. In practice, I think it would leave a lot to be desired.

[Roboman01]

The valve in the schematic above is a 5-port, 4-way, 3-position valve with the center position blocking both pressure and exhaust ports. This allows the pneumatic cylinder to be controlled similarly to a hydraulic ram, since one can shut off and trap the air inside the cylinder, preventing significant movement.

Of course, <R73> specifically states that this is not allowed, so one must be able to vent the trapped pressure at the same time as the rest of the system, from a single valve. The two check valves allow this. Each check valve allows air to flow (mostly) unobstructed out of the supply to each cylinder, but does not allow the high-pressure air to reach the cylinder supply lines. Since the pressure in the cylinder is lower than that of the accumulator, little air will be lost, due to the natural tendency for the higher pressure air to seal off the check valve.

During normal operation, this will cause the cylinder to act as if it were connected via a normal piece of tubing. However, in the event that we need to vent all of our stored pressure rapidly, the check valve will allow the stored pressure in the cylinder to flow straight out the dump valve.

[DonRotolo]

Oh, I get it - the check valves allow the whole system to vent to atmosphere when high pressure is released, thus making the 3-way valve (center position blocking) legal.

I'd be prepared to explain carefully to the inspector why the high pressure side seems to be connected to a cylinder.

[PAR_WIG1350]

Just to clarify, the system explained in the first post and the schematic in the second are actually 2 very different methods of controlling cylinders. I imagine it would be very difficult to try to match the schematic to the description in the first post, since they don't actually go together.

[Roboman01]

I imagine it would be very difficult to try to match the schematic to the description in the first post, since they don't actually go together.

That was the point. I was trying to describe a simpler system of controlling the cylinder.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by Roboman01

Now, why wouldn't something like that work? This is just for the control of a single cylinder; the rest of the circuit continues past the black arrow. Each check valve prevents backflow from the accumulator into the cylinder, while simultaneously allowing venting of all pressurized areas from a single valve. (Note: I was intending to use a solenoid flow-control valve, but I seem to have lost the link.)

The bolded words are why it won't work (at least not legally). <R65> and <R66> combine to heavily limit the types of pneumatic devices allowed on the robot. Check valves are not one of those allowed devices.

[Roboman01]

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

The bolded words are why it won't work (at least not legally). <R65> and <R66> combine to heavily limit the types of pneumatic devices allowed on the robot. Check valves are not one of those allowed devices.

Oh dear, that could prove problematic.

EDIT: A unidirectional inline flow control valve, when it's closed entirely, will act like a check valve. If each check valve in my above schematic was replaced with one of these, it would perform the same function, and remain legal.

[GearsOfFury]

May I pose a practical question? Why do we think the GDC has this rule in place? Why not allow the use of additional pressure relief valves in line with the cylinder rod/head supply lines, mounted on your bot right next to the "main" relief valve? You could use quick-release toggle valves (e.g. http://www.mcmaster.com/#pneumatic-t...valves/=b7a2dk) to make it super-easy to relieve pressure in an emergency... One could even devise some kind of mechanical toggle that connects to the valves and flips all the connected reliefs at once.

So, is it a safety / emergency thing for use at the end of the match or in an emergency situation, or does the ability to trap air at mid-stroke during normal use pose some other safety concern?? I can't imagine the latter, or there wouldn't be much market for closed-center solenoids...!

[Roboman01]

<R73> The pressure vent plug valve must be connected to the pneumatic circuit such that, when manually operated, it will vent to the atmosphere to relieve all stored pressure. The valve must be placed on the ROBOT so that it is visible and easily accessible. If the compressor is not used on the ROBOT, then an additional vent valve must be obtained and connected to the high-pressure portion of the pneumatic circuit off board the ROBOT with the compressor (see Rule <R69>).

That's why you couldn't have multiple release valves. Unless you could find something that can simultaneously vent multiple outputs while keeping each output isolated, you cannot use your idea.

[GearsOfFury]

Roboman: I understand that's the rule, I'm asking "Why do we think the GDC has this rule in place?", and should it be reasonably challenged for next year's rules? The single vent rule was further emphasized first in Lunacy with "all" underlined. 2008 was the first year they broke out mention of the valve separately; before that it was mentioned as part of the Nason main relief rule and wasn't as explicit: "The Parker pressure vent valve must be connected to
a Clippard tank such that, when manually operated, it will vent to the atmosphere to relieve any stored pressure."

The fact that they've refined and emphasized the rule leads me to believe there were safety issues at some events (perhaps in 2007 and again in 2009). I'm just wondering if they were "emergency" occurrences that required quick relief by one and only one valve, or if we could build safe (and potentially more functional) robots that had multiple relief valves that together are capable of relieving all stored pressure.

[Roboman01]

Originally Posted by GearsOfFury

Roboman: Why do we think the GDC has this rule in place?

Stored pressure in a pneumatic system is inherently dangerous. If a part happens to fail, one must have a reliable method of quickly venting the system pressure, preferably from a single point. Requiring a single release valve is a much easier way of making sure all teams have this, rather than judging a pneumatic system's safety on a case-by-case basis. I actually believe this rule is a good one. However, I also believe that the GDC should allow a broader range of pneumatic devices, such as check valves, for next year.

Originally Posted by PAR_WIG13500

I understand, and always have understood, that you were describing a different system. I just didn't want people to perceive either system as being more complex (or confusing) than it really was by trying to match the system I proposed to the system you provided a diagram of, since that is impossible due to the fact the systems are far from similar.

Also, 'simpler' is a matter of opinion, I consider mine to be simpler due to the fact that it doesn't require very much attention in the code, all you need to do is set the regulator and let it find equilibrium with the spring on its own. Also, it isn't very complex physically either. I will draw a diagram and post it for clarity.

I understand your system, however, it seems a little jury-rigged, to be frank. Keep in mind that the force exerted by springs changes based on how much they are extended or compressed, unless you use a constant-force spring (obviously). Also, you're relying on a relieving regulator to vent excess pressure in the cylinder. While these are more common than non-relieving regulators, the latter are certainly not rare, and could easily be confused with a pressure-relieving regulator.

In addition, to implement your system, you would need to figure out some way of controlling the regulator. You mentioned hobby servos, which could work, but they are confined to <180 degrees. Sail winch servos are not allowed, and still would not rotate enough to open and close the regulator entirely. They are also much more coarse in their movements, which could limit your true control over the cylinder.

Your system would have a variable force in addition to the variable stroke, since you're varying the pressure, rather than the amount of air in either end. As you should know, reducing the pressure also reduces the force exerted, and the spring on the end that counteracts the cylinder's rod will cause the net force to be near zero, since it's stopping the travel mid-stroke. This is obviously not good for actuating an arm, or anything that will be exerting any sort of force.