avoid hitting the ESTOP in competition!

[mwtidd]

My team at bae this weekend had an issue where our network cable had gotten ripped out of the classmate. This caused our robot to drive on its own for a couple of matches.

My tip has nothing to do with this but rather something we found out the hard way.

Avoid hitting the E STOP at all costs. If your robot is not a danger, but is wandering aimlessly, most likely it will come to a stop on one of the walls.

Let it do this because you will still get ranking points as long as you don't hit the button.

Our team would have been ranked 11th and been picking alliance partners had we not hit the button. Instead we weren't picked at all (for obvious reasons...)

Another note, we did not hit the estop until he had come to a complete stop and was trapped in a corner, so in reality we achieved nothing by hitting the E STOP button.


However if your robot is a danger, obviously hit the button... we don't want anyone getting hurt.

[pathew100]

Pressing the E-stop does not effect your QS or RS scores. It merely disables your robot.

Now if you got a Red Card from the head ref for improper use of the E-stop button that's a different story...

[jason701802]

Originally Posted by pathew100

Pressing the E-stop does not effect your QS or RS scores. It merely disables your robot.

Now if you got a Red Card from the head ref for improper use of the E-stop button that's a different story...

I was about to post a quote from the manual to disprove you, but I was very surprised to find that this issue was not directly addressed in this years manual, only that a disqualified robot cannot earn any qualification points. That said, seeing how hitting the E-Stop button has always been considered the same as disqualification, I would expect this year to be no different.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by jason701802

That said, seeing how hitting the E-Stop button has always been considered the same as disqualification, I would expect this year to be no different.

To flip around the meme, old manual quotes or it didn't happen. (I've hit the E-stop more times on the field than I care to admit. I also know how many times we've received a disqualification for it. The latter is a nice round number.)

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by jason701802

That said, seeing how hitting the E-Stop button has always been considered the same as disqualification, I would expect this year to be no different.

That has not been the case for at least 5 years.

Last year introduced the "inappropriate e-stop use" rule, which results in a red card. The e-stop is to be used only in an emergency (hence the "e" in the name). Not wanting to incur a penalty is not an emergency. Smoking is an emergency.

[KC1AJT]

I just pulled your file from our team's scouting box (which was done Friday) and from what I see you had at least 2 matches that you had considerable issues. I cannot draw any conclusions since I didnt personally see it, but it also looks like you were a lower-scoring bot. I had actually stopped by your pit to learn more on Thursday and didn't make too many notes. The standings ranked you 29th of 53 or so and shows 5 wins and 2 losses with 7 matches (when most teams had 10). I assume you were disqualified 3 times or missed a few matches. We actually had you under consideration if we did get to pick, pending the reliability of your bot. We were lucky enough to get picked out of the 31st spot and compete in 1 round. Congrats to all BAE competitors! It was a tough competition and everyone did their best!

[mwtidd]

Originally Posted by pathew100

Pressing the E-stop does not effect your QS or RS scores. It merely disables your robot.

Now if you got a Red Card from the head ref for improper use of the E-stop button that's a different story...

i will assure you, our autonomous ran in 10 matches. so we had a working robot. we only received qualification points for 7 of those. the field crew cited the estop as the reason

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

That has not been the case for at least 5 years.

Last year introduced the "inappropriate e-stop use" rule, which results in a red card. The e-stop is to be used only in an emergency (hence the "e" in the name). Not wanting to incur a penalty is not an emergency. Smoking is an emergency.

Interesting to note... where the field crew did not cite this rule it is good to know. Our robot started barreling around the field at full speed. for the sake of everyone the robot was estopped.

Originally Posted by computerteen643

I just pulled your file from our team's scouting box (which was done Friday) and from what I see you had at least 2 matches that you had considerable issues. I cannot draw any conclusions since I didnt personally see it, but it also looks like you were a lower-scoring bot. I had actually stopped by your pit to learn more on Thursday and didn't make too many notes. The standings ranked you 29th of 53 or so and shows 5 wins and 2 losses with 7 matches (when most teams had 10). I assume you were disqualified 3 times or missed a few matches. We actually had you under consideration if we did get to pick, pending the reliability of your bot. We were lucky enough to get picked out of the 31st spot and compete in 1 round. Congrats to all BAE competitors! It was a tough competition and everyone did their best!

*unfortunately*(not for me but my team) I had an interview that came up on thursday. i am the team's only programming resource this year and we had some problems that day. So I assume it was a bit chaotic. probably why you didn't find out much. Also I am not claiming we earned the number 11 rank, however this is a flaw in the ranking algorithm, as we would have been 11th had we not estopped.

the 3 matches where we had error were a product of the broken network jack on our netbook. at some point on friday someone yanked out the ethernet cable. so when it popped out on the field, the robot went crazy.


Once again, my claims about the ESTOP are not based on suspicion, the field crew told us at the end of competition. if the estop is hit you will NOT receive any ranking or qualifying points for that match.

[KC1AJT]

Originally Posted by lineskier

*unfortunately*(not for me but my team) I had an interview that came up on thursday. i am the team's only programming resource this year and we had some problems that day. So I assume it was a bit chaotic. probably why you didn't find out much.

When I stopped by, I wasnt looking for a programmer, simply information. I designed a pit scouting sheet that allows our team to collect very basic information, but make unique bots jump off the page. I did note that you were using skid-steer, 6 wheels, 3 drive motors, no camera, 2 autonomous modes, and a mini bot. Pit sheets are often only looked at if you perform well in the matches. I wish your team luck with all your competitions, BAE was very difficult for everyone and was a great way to start the season, preparing for other competitions.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by lineskier

Once again, my claims about the ESTOP are not based on suspicion, the field crew told us at the end of competition. if the estop is hit you will NOT receive any ranking or qualifying points for that match.

This is unfortunate, but it underscores the importance of knowing the manual and bringing a copy with you to the event.

[Adam Richards]

Originally Posted by lineskier

Once again, my claims about the ESTOP are not based on suspicion, the field crew told us at the end of competition. if the estop is hit you will NOT receive any ranking or qualifying points for that match.

If the estop is hit without sufficient reasoning, you will receive a red card, which then stops you from receiving any RPs or QPs during qualification marches. During elimination matches, you will DQ your entire alliance for the match.

Again, it is not simply because you hit the estop that you got a red card, it is because you hit the estop and the referees did not judge your robot to be a safety violation while this was happening. If your robot was not in your control, you need to inform a referee before/after you slam that button.

Originally Posted by FRC 2011 Game Manual

<T12> During the qualification matches, a TEAM that receives a RED CARD will receive zero
qualification points and zero ranking points. The rest of the TEAMS in their ALLIANCE will
still receive the earned qualification points and ranking points.
<T13>During the elimination matches, a TEAM receiving a RED CARD will cause the
disqualification of their entire ALLIANCE for that MATCH.
<G29>If a ROBOT becomes unsafe (e.g. the ROBOT begins to smoke, the battery falls out, etc.) it may be disabled by pressing the E-Stop button. This will cause the TEAM'S ROBOT to be disabled for the remainder of the MATCH. The E-Stop buttons are intended for remote shut down during a MATCH in the event of safety hazards and will not otherwise affect MATCH score or duration. Any TEAM member may press the E-Stop button.
Violation: Inappropriate use of the E-Stop button (i.e. not for safety reasons) will result in a PENALTY plus RED CARD.

[mwtidd]

Originally Posted by computerteen643

When I stopped by, I wasnt looking for a programmer, simply information. I designed a pit scouting sheet that allows our team to collect very basic information, but make unique bots jump off the page. I did note that you were using skid-steer, 6 wheels, 3 drive motors, no camera, 2 autonomous modes, and a mini bot. Pit sheets are often only looked at if you perform well in the matches. I wish your team luck with all your competitions, BAE was very difficult for everyone and was a great way to start the season, preparing for other competitions.

Yeah that was our only competition, and this year I'm glad the season's over. Just finish college I really don't have the time to sacrifice another whole weekend, I need to focus my time on that job search thing .

Also, I don't know if it was a problem with your scouting, or our reporting. But your description of our robot seems a little off. The robot was a 2 wheel arcade drive with pneumatic strafe wheel. Also we only had one autonomous mode, but one that could start anywhere on the field as we DID use the camera.

Again I don't know if it was our team's inability to pitch the robot, or your recording or a little bit of both. Off topic, but this is something that I am very concerned about with our team, and shows once again the importance of business(presenting, connecting, presence, and marketing) on FIRST, because many times it is not how your robot performs, but the percieved value of your robot that gets you a chance.

[mwtidd]

Originally Posted by Adam Richards

If the estop is hit without sufficient reasoning, you will receive a red card, which then stops you from receiving any RPs or QPs during qualification marches. During elimination matches, you will DQ your entire alliance for the match.

Again, it is not simply because you hit the estop that you got a red card, it is because you hit the estop and the referees did not judge your robot to be a safety violation while this was happening. If your robot was not in your control, you need to inform a referee before/after you slam that button.

again i'm not sure what consists of a safety hazard... in our case our robot was not driven by joystick or autonomous, and trust me. at full speed that thing was cooking, and we had no idea or control over what it would do next

you make a good point that you should read the manual and always express hitting the estop button to a ref before you do it. let them make the call...

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by lineskier

again i'm not sure what consists of a safety hazard...

<G29> has you covered:

Originally Posted by G29

If a ROBOT becomes unsafe (e.g. the ROBOT begins to smoke, the battery falls out, etc.)...

If your robot is out of your control (in whole or in part--if your arm's potentiometer fails and it starts flailing around), I'd say that counts as well.

[Mark McLeod]

Yours' is a good caution to teams that using the eStop is very serious this year.

At NJ the head ref emphasized at the drivers meeting that the eSTOP will draw a red card unless it's obvious to the refs that the robot is in an emergency situation.
They are watching the robots and cannot tell if your driver controls are not working (and non-working controls do not necessarily constitute an emergency).

Request permission/guidance from a nearby ref before hitting the eSTOP unless the robot is obviously in danger of an electrical fire, then stand in the red box after the match to explain to the head ref the circumstances of your eStop. Pleading your case for legal use of the eStop is probably the best course of action.

[KC1AJT]

Originally Posted by lineskier

Yeah that was our only competition, and this year I'm glad the season's over. Just finish college I really don't have the time to sacrifice another whole weekend, I need to focus my time on that job search thing .

Also, I don't know if it was a problem with your scouting, or our reporting. But your description of our robot seems a little off. The robot was a 2 wheel arcade drive with pneumatic strafe wheel. Also we only had one autonomous mode, but one that could start anywhere on the field as we DID use the camera.

Again I don't know if it was our team's inability to pitch the robot, or your recording or a little bit of both. Off topic, but this is something that I am very concerned about with our team, and shows once again the importance of business(presenting, connecting, presence, and marketing) on FIRST, because many times it is not how your robot performs, but the percieved value of your robot that gets you a chance.

I'd go more with the ability to pitch because I wrote down what Josh said.