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Unread 08-03-2011, 21:12
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Re: I am very nervous

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Originally Posted by lineskier View Post
The drive typically get values from 1 to -1. I was running at a .15 and .25. What I found was that with the older model battery, the robot would hardly be able to move. Where as with the newer one it would cook.
The motor speeds wouldn't change but the power would. Also our cims were geared way up. So the robot didn't have the torque to move at low speeds with an older battery. It seemed the difference between the batteries was enough to give it that extra bit of torque at low speeds.
Interesting, has there been any data on the electrical characteristics of the new batteries? (I admit I haven't looked, been too busy trying to get my programmers to comment their Subversion entries!)

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Unread 08-03-2011, 21:19
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Re: I am very nervous

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Originally Posted by Matt Krass View Post
Interesting, has there been any data on the electrical characteristics of the new batteries? (I admit I haven't looked, been too busy trying to get my programmers to comment their Subversion entries!)

Matt
haha. I have no idea. also it seemed only to be a problem at low speeds, but it took me all comp to figure out why the speed seemed random. Again part of it was our design... a 2 cim drive direct through toughbox (1 cim per box). In the end this setup just sucks, sucks for programming, sucks for driving. We also found the setup would essentially overheat after a minute of use on the carpet, and would just quit. Hopefully other people can learn from our mistakes.
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Unread 08-03-2011, 21:23
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Re: I am very nervous

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Originally Posted by lineskier View Post
haha. I have no idea. also it seemed only to be a problem at low speeds, but it took me all comp to figure out why the speed seemed random. Again part of it was our design... a 2 cim drive direct through toughbox (1 cim per box). In the end this setup just sucks, sucks for programming, sucks for driving. We also found the setup would essentially overheat after a minute of use on the carpet, and would just quit. Hopefully other people can learn from our mistakes.
Sounds like the motors may have been near stall, and the new batteries may be a bit healthier and able to dump more current in to the motors at a given power level. Maybe we should do some battery profiling.

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Unread 08-03-2011, 21:25
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Re: I am very nervous

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Originally Posted by lineskier View Post
Honestly, autonomous this year is much more difficult than last year. Plan on never capping. However, what your team need to realize, to compete this year, you need a working autonomous. Look at the finals matches from all events, they are full of robots with working autonomous. I say this, because your team needs to help you reach the goal of autonomous.

Insights I have for you from week 1. If you are running motor speed at a .1 or .2 in autonomous watch out for the batteries. The newer batteries have more power than older one's. This caused me to smash into the driver station in one match. Watch out for the coasting CIMS, if they are geared to high your autonomous will be almost impossible.

Your robot will fail epically at least once in autonomous. Try to do this on thursday, so you can learn from it.

If you have your code, feel free to send it to me mwtidd@gmail.com. I'll take a look over it, and see if there's anything you should be worried about.

If you find that the robot was poorly designed for autonomous. Just scrap the autonomous. I should have done this earlier in the comp and focused on the minibot.

Try to avoid as much blame as you can. If you get a working autonomous you will be a hero, but this is dependent on so many design factors. Its often better to let the robot sit in autonomous, and just work on getting the autonomous working on the practice field. You won't need it til saturday.

At BAE we actually organized the sharing of the practice field... we had anywhere between 2 and 4 teams sharing the space at one time. It worked really well to have 2 or 3 teams debugging their autonomous together. Its also motivating to see other working robots, and other teams having trouble. I have more fun playing in the practice area, than watching the matches . It is the back room that the real magic happens.

Hope I helped!
The first paragraph did not help much . I do not have the code with me, that also adds to my nervousness. And thanks for the heads up for the motors, I currently had it at around 40%. Man, our autonomy (actually software in general) usually gets scrapped until the end. We are the lowest priority apparently. Now I totally agree with you. Our sensors are literally going to be zip tied on or something. I constantly told the electronics, and CAD people what we needed from week one. It is not in any of the CADs. I can't believe everyone just expects the programmers to pull off miracles. So right now, we are like a blind man with a walking stick. It will be tough.

Keep in mind, I have been programming everyday since day one. It is just that I had been given lots of little "projects" to do. I wanted autonomy to be #1 this year, but people kept on piling on jobs to be done and it was the last thing on the other people's minds.
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Unread 08-03-2011, 21:28
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Re: I am very nervous

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Originally Posted by davidthefat View Post
The first paragraph did not help much . I do not have the code with me, that also adds to my nervousness. And thanks for the heads up for the motors, I currently had it at around 40%. Man, our autonomy (actually software in general) usually gets scrapped until the end. We are the lowest priority apparently. Now I totally agree with you. Our sensors are literally going to be zip tied on or something. I constantly told the electronics, and CAD people what we needed from week one. It is not in any of the CADs. I can't believe everyone just expects the programmers to pull off miracles. So right now, we are like a blind man with a walking stick. It will be tough.
Traditionally programmers usually get this kind of treatment. The best plan I've seen for fixing it is to get involved in the mechanical side of things. You'll learn more skill-sets, you will be be able to personally design in and mount your sensors, and best of all, you're not 'just a programmer' anymore, so you may have better luck communicating.

Unfortunately, especially with FIRST giving out so much pre-written code (that only sort of works, not that anyone else understands that) people tend to assume the programmers job is point and click monkey.

Matt
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Unread 08-03-2011, 21:37
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Re: I am very nervous

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Originally Posted by Matt Krass View Post
Traditionally programmers usually get this kind of treatment. The best plan I've seen for fixing it is to get involved in the mechanical side of things. You'll learn more skill-sets, you will be be able to personally design in and mount your sensors, and best of all, you're not 'just a programmer' anymore, so you may have better luck communicating.

Unfortunately, especially with FIRST giving out so much pre-written code (that only sort of works, not that anyone else understands that) people tend to assume the programmers job is point and click monkey.

Matt

Now, I am a very "low level" person and my mentor finds me too valuable of a programmer to be doing electronics or any hardware. I try to use the lowest to the hardware the software allows. I have just glanced over the pre-written codes, I was "appalled" by the thought of even copying the method of doing things they use. Plus, I don't like the way they do things anyway. May be that is my personality flaw, but I see it as a good thing. Might hint on the fact that I am arrogant, but shows I am independent. I have been criticized by other programmers because they think I am just making it harder on myself. I like the challenge actually and I feel guilty if I use prewritten code, feels like cheating to me. (Now it really is not cheating per se, but feels very much like it)
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Unread 08-03-2011, 21:45
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Re: I am very nervous

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Originally Posted by Matt Krass View Post
Traditionally programmers usually get this kind of treatment. The best plan I've seen for fixing it is to get involved in the mechanical side of things. You'll learn more skill-sets, you will be be able to personally design in and mount your sensors, and best of all, you're not 'just a programmer' anymore, so you may have better luck communicating.

Matt
This. Even in FTC, teams or at least my team neglect the programming portion and focus mostly on building the robot. I also feel nervous about going to a competition because the programming is incomplete and my team is unprepared. Sometimes one has to take more control in order to get something done. Once it is off season there is much opportunity to be prepared for the next season.

Just remember, FIRST is much more than the robots.
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Unread 08-03-2011, 21:48
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Re: I am very nervous

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Originally Posted by davidthefat View Post
Now, I am a very "low level" person and my mentor finds me too valuable of a programmer to be doing electronics or any hardware. I try to use the lowest to the hardware the software allows. I have just glanced over the pre-written codes, I was "appalled" by the thought of even copying the method of doing things they use. Plus, I don't like the way they do things anyway. May be that is my personality flaw, but I see it as a good thing. Might hint on the fact that I am arrogant, but shows I am independent. I have been criticized by other programmers because they think I am just making it harder on myself. I like the challenge actually and I feel guilty if I use prewritten code, feels like cheating to me. (Now it really is not cheating per se, but feels very much like it)
I understand exactly where you're coming from. I hated using the code FIRST gave us, actually I still do, but I've been better about it. For me it's more of a matter of understanding, fixing code you've never really seen before and don't know the details of is extraordinarily difficult. (Ironically, I do this professionally now). I can definitely also understand wanting a challenge. Part of being a good programmer is learning the balance between working with what you have, and writing what you don't have, or don't think is worth using. For example, 263 has their own custom PID system, but we still make a good deal of use of WPILib. This balance can only be struck with some experience, and a little luck, it'll come in time.

To that end, working on the electronics and mechanical team is very very good for programmers, and even if your case I think you'd find it a lot easier to work at a higher level when you're solving more interesting problems. Instead of "they finally mounted the pot, now let me make it work" you can approach the problem as "I need to control the arm, here's what I have to work with". Plus, I'm getting really sick of the stereotype that programmers with power tools are dangerous! Help me change it.

Matt
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Unread 08-03-2011, 22:16
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Re: I am very nervous

My honest recommendation is to sign up to be the "Team Scapegoat". Everything is the Scapegoat's fault, so the Scapegoat always gets blamed.

Of course, it is NEVER EVER the Scapegoat's fault. So, you can rest easy knowing it was not your fault. But only as the Scapegoat.

==

Seriously: Test your code in the practice sessions, that's what they're for. At the very worst, you disable it for the entire regional - not the end of the world.
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Unread 08-03-2011, 22:20
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Re: I am very nervous

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Originally Posted by DonRotolo View Post
My honest recommendation is to sign up to be the "Team Scapegoat". Everything is the Scapegoat's fault, so the Scapegoat always gets blamed.

Of course, it is NEVER EVER the Scapegoat's fault. So, you can rest easy knowing it was not your fault. But only as the Scapegoat.

==

Seriously: Test your code in the practice sessions, that's what they're for. At the very worst, you disable it for the entire regional - not the end of the world.
Funny, the mechanical guys always made it sound like the end of the world.

Practice sessions are useful, and don't be afraid to ask other teams for help. At the same time, if you absolutely can't figure out your code problems, turn the robot back to the mechanical team and let them make all the tweaks they're inevitably going to want to make. Go take a walk and see if you can help another team with their programming problem! Believe it or not I've had many Eurekas while helping other teams, and its great networking for you and your team.

Matt
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Unread 08-03-2011, 22:28
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Re: I am very nervous

My only advice: Turn your nervousness into confidence. Be excited about the competition. This is my first year in FRC, and I am stoked for the SVR! We may not have the best robot, and we may not win, but out of what I've seen and the previous competitions I've watched, it's a fun and life-changing experience that shouldn't be ruined by nervousness. Go and have fun!
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Unread 08-03-2011, 22:36
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Re: I am very nervous

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Originally Posted by davidthefat View Post
The first paragraph did not help much . I do not have the code with me, that also adds to my nervousness. And thanks for the heads up for the motors, I currently had it at around 40%. Man, our autonomy (actually software in general) usually gets scrapped until the end. We are the lowest priority apparently. Now I totally agree with you. Our sensors are literally going to be zip tied on or something. I constantly told the electronics, and CAD people what we needed from week one. It is not in any of the CADs. I can't believe everyone just expects the programmers to pull off miracles. So right now, we are like a blind man with a walking stick. It will be tough.

Keep in mind, I have been programming everyday since day one. It is just that I had been given lots of little "projects" to do. I wanted autonomy to be #1 this year, but people kept on piling on jobs to be done and it was the last thing on the other people's minds.
Yeah, sorry I didn't mean to psych you out. I just want you to lower your expectations and relax. You'll have a lot more fun. I don't want you to be like I was running around like an idiot.(There was one 40 min break where they had me coding and debugging, autonomous and the minibot deployment from scratch) Your team made design decisions and chose not to prioritize autonomous... that's their fault. Just be glad that in reality they can't blame you for the failure of the robot (that is unless you break the robot). Hence why I said, if you do autonomous stuff, do it on the practice field rather than the actual field. If your comfortable with it, break it out on the last day.

Remember that this year wasn't wasted, you will learn what to expect. I have a whole list of design requirements for me to implement in the off season, and I'm sure you'll have the same after comp. I'm actually planning on building my own chassis in the off season, to play around with some of the things i'd like to implement.

Have fun and make the most of comp. It's a good time if you don't take it too seriously
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Unread 08-03-2011, 23:17
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Re: I am very nervous

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Originally Posted by lineskier View Post
Honestly, autonomous this year is much more difficult than last year.
If you are experienced enough to take advantage of certain sensors, this is the easiest autonomous mode I have seen. If youre not using the sensors, then I agree with you, it is considerably harder.

Dont let yourself get down if you arent experienced enough to use the sensors, or your mechanical guys decided they werent important enough to put on the robot. Success will come as you gain more experience.
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Unread 08-03-2011, 23:21
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Red face Re: I am very nervous

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Originally Posted by Laaba 80 View Post
If you are experienced enough to take advantage of certain sensors, this is the easiest autonomous mode I have seen. If youre not using the sensors, then I agree with you, it is considerably harder.

Dont let yourself get down if you arent experienced enough to use the sensors, or your mechanical guys decided they werent important enough to put on the robot. Success will come as you gain more experience.
I agree, TBH, it felt as if the GDC was actually was PUSHING autonomy. They had lines and the reflective tape on the pegs (they really do stand out). Last year, it was just a circle.
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Unread 08-03-2011, 23:23
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Re: I am very nervous

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Originally Posted by davidthefat View Post
I agree, TBH, it felt as if the GDC was actually was PUSHING autonomy. They had lines and the reflective tape on the pegs (they really do stand out). Last year, it was just a circle.
Yeah they made it pretty nice this year, especially giving us those awesome photosensors.

My kids got a state machine together to run through the sequence of aligning the arm and driving up to the goal, and it was working but hard to keep perfectly aligned with the goal. Then we remembered the photosensors on the front and of the robot and were able to write a line tracking algorithm that just braked the wheel corresponding to the sensor that was tripped and we were in business. Compared to some of the autonomous challenges we've gotten before, this wasn't too bad.

Not to say it was easy, but it's certainly doable at an event.
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