Teams broadcasting regionals... [Appeal]

[basicxman]

Hello CD Community!

If you are a team or sponsor who is broadcasting a venue event during the 2011 season, please use an web-friendly medium such as ustream (http://ustream.tv).

A lot of streams have used Microsoft Media Streaming or non-mainstream Flash alternatives. Using ustream allows:

• Easy to view - only a Flash plugin is required
• Built-in moderated chat
• Easy to embed (see: http://mmrambotics.ca/regionalfeed)
• Easy to setup!

MMS is not a very cross-platform friendly solution, unless you happen to be running IE and Windows, you will have to download plugins which don't seem to have an even near 100% success rate. (Looking at you NASA).

Of course we can't thank teams enough for broadcasting regionals to the FIRST community and general public, but please use a webpage friendly solution.

- basicxman

P.S. Wondering why this is such a concern? We've made an awesome tool which lots of generic public and CD users are enjoying - it allows multiple regional feeds to be watched at once, but MMS and non-mainstream solutions do not work as well as ustream. http://mmrambotics.ca/regionalfeed

[The Lucas]

Before I get to a criticism of your appeal, let me first praise your great work on the website. It is worthy successor to SOAP Gameday. The movable and sizable windows within the page are truly impressive coding. Providing a place where the FIRST community can go to find all the webcasts is truly valuable. I hope everyone uses your chat, because a centralized chat is much better than everyone in different regional chats.

Originally Posted by basicxman

MMS is not a very cross-platform friendly solution, unless you happen to be running IE and Windows, you will have to download plugins which don't seem to have an even near 100% success rate. (Looking at you NASA).

You hit the nail right on the head, plugins are the problem. However, while the WMP plugin may be the worst, flash plugin isn't perfect either. That brings me to my point: a web browser is not the optimal solution to streaming video from multiple sources, since it has significant overhead (plugins).

With ustream.tv you have no choice other than use a web browser with flash to view it. With MMS you can use a web browser with WMP, but there is a better option of using a media player, particularly VLC. I routinely view multiple webcasts in multiple VLC instances an they all play smoothly only using a small amount of CPU (a each take fraction, about 1/3 for me, of what it takes for the shockwave plugin to play a single ustream). I recommend using checking "Always on Top" and using "Minimal View" (ctrl-h) so you have several sizable windows that will show up on top of other windows (like a web browser). VLC works across all platforms (much better than Flash IMHO as a Linux dual boot user)

Ustream is free (nice), but the ads are very annoying. The ones across the bottom obscure the score and are a hassle to keep closing (particularly on multiple ustreams across 2 laptops). The ads that play fullscreen interrupt matches and play at full sound even when you previously muted that stream (so they disrupt the audio to the regional you were listening to). NASA provides us with hosting for MMS streams so they should be used whenever possible instead of ustream IMHO. Other solutions like 987's flash (archive working for San Diego), provide benefits like instant archiving and ranking updates.



So here is the constructive part of my criticism. I suggest you keep your windows for the MMS feeds but encourage your visitors not to use them. Use part of that blank webpage area (that windows will later be placed over) to give them instruction on how to download, install and use VLC. Provide them these addresses for feeds to past into VLC.
Greater Kansas City
http://streaming.more.net/robomatcheslive
Florida
http://mfile.akamai.com/77131/live/r...asx?bkup=56948
Wisconsin
mms://sargasso-3.arc.nasa.gov/wisconsinregional
Lake Superior
mms://sargasso-3.arc.nasa.gov/duluthregional
WPI
mms://sargasso-3.arc.nasa.gov/wisconsinregional
New York (when it is available)
Stop worrying about the flaky WMP plugin and its inability to resize (nice solution with the small & large options) by offloading it to VLC or other media player where it belongs.

Finally, thank you and all the people involved with the webcasts for their tremendous contributions to the FIRST community. I'm very glad your site exists so I can easily arrange the ustream feeds and chat in one page (last year I made a quick and dirty page to embedd all the ustream stuff for that week and opened it in my browser). Enjoy this weekend's webcasts everyone, the elims should be amazing!

[HarveyAce]

Originally Posted by The Lucas

Before I get to a criticism of your appeal, let me first praise your great work on the website. It is worthy successor to SOAP Gameday. The movable and sizable windows within the page are truly impressive coding. Providing a place where the FIRST community can go to find all the webcasts is truly valuable. I hope everyone uses your chat, because a centralized chat is much better than everyone in different regional chats.



You hit the nail right on the head, plugins are the problem. However, while the WMP plugin may be the worst, flash plugin isn't perfect either. That brings me to my point: a web browser is not the optimal solution to streaming video from multiple sources, since it has significant overhead (plugins).

With ustream.tv you have no choice other than use a web browser with flash to view it. With MMS you can use a web browser with WMP, but there is a better option of using a media player, particularly VLC. I routinely view multiple webcasts in multiple VLC instances an they all play smoothly only using a small amount of CPU (a each take fraction, about 1/3 for me, of what it takes for the shockwave plugin to play a single ustream). I recommend using checking "Always on Top" and using "Minimal View" (ctrl-h) so you have several sizable windows that will show up on top of other windows (like a web browser). VLC works across all platforms (much better than Flash IMHO as a Linux dual boot user)

Ustream is free (nice), but the ads are very annoying. The ones across the bottom obscure the score and are a hassle to keep closing (particularly on multiple ustreams across 2 laptops). The ads that play fullscreen interrupt matches and play at full sound even when you previously muted that stream (so they disrupt the audio to the regional you were listening to). NASA provides us with hosting for MMS streams so they should be used whenever possible instead of ustream IMHO. Other solutions like 987's flash (archive working for San Diego), provide benefits like instant archiving and ranking updates.



So here is the constructive part of my criticism. I suggest you keep your windows for the MMS feeds but encourage your visitors not to use them. Use part of that blank webpage area (that windows will later be placed over) to give them instruction on how to download, install and use VLC. Provide them these addresses for feeds to past into VLC.
Greater Kansas City
http://streaming.more.net/robomatcheslive
Florida
http://mfile.akamai.com/77131/live/r...asx?bkup=56948
Wisconsin
mms://sargasso-3.arc.nasa.gov/wisconsinregional
Lake Superior
mms://sargasso-3.arc.nasa.gov/duluthregional
WPI
mms://sargasso-3.arc.nasa.gov/wisconsinregional
New York (when it is available)
Stop worrying about the flaky WMP plugin and its inability to resize (nice solution with the small & large options) by offloading it to VLC or other media player where it belongs.

Finally, thank you and all the people involved with the webcasts for their tremendous contributions to the FIRST community. I'm very glad your site exists so I can easily arrange the ustream feeds and chat in one page (last year I made a quick and dirty page to embedd all the ustream stuff for that week and opened it in my browser). Enjoy this weekend's webcasts everyone, the elims should be amazing!

I agree with basicxman. Not that you don't have some good points to your arguement. however, I know of a great deal of peole who cannot get the pluggins, and not everyone can get VLC (myself included.). While the ads on ustream can be a hassle at times, they are better than not having the regional at all. Many computers do not take too kindly to pluggins, and media players can be more tedious than helpful. not everyone has open source access on their systems. At least with ustream, anyone can watch with any browser, without a bunch of pluggins.

[basicxman]

Originally Posted by The Lucas

Before I get to a criticism of your appeal, let me first praise your great work on the website. It is worthy successor to SOAP Gameday. The movable and sizable windows within the page are truly impressive coding.

Thank you, however it's not very impressive coding - I used jQuery UI (mind you even without it there's just a bit of DOM magic involved to do so).

Originally Posted by The Lucas

I hope everyone uses your chat, because a centralized chat is much better than everyone in different regional chats.

It's been quite active, some good discussion especially for regionals without ustream.

Originally Posted by The Lucas

You hit the nail right on the head, plugins are the problem. However, while the WMP plugin may be the worst, flash plugin isn't perfect either.

Fully agreed, however two geeks can argue night and day about HTML5 vs Flash or in this case WMP vs. Flash but in my opinion this page was not just for the more technical among us (see: CD community) but for the general public. Flash is a much more adopted plugin.

Originally Posted by The Lucas

That brings me to my point: a web browser is not the optimal solution to streaming video from multiple sources, since it has significant overhead (plugins).

Disagreed. Web browsers are making their way in the desktop world. While plugins are certainly an overhead, not a large one.

Originally Posted by The Lucas

Ustream is free (nice), but the ads are very annoying. The ones across the bottom obscure the score and are a hassle to keep closing (particularly on multiple ustreams across 2 laptops). The ads that play fullscreen interrupt matches and play at full sound even when you previously muted that stream (so they disrupt the audio to the regional you were listening to).

Entirely agreed here, however I would prefer this if it allows to be viewed on any platform in a browser.

Originally Posted by The Lucas

Other solutions like 987's flash (archive working for San Diego), provide benefits like instant archiving and ranking updates.

Awesome (and good job to #987). Alternative view for those who don't want a very large Flash window?

Originally Posted by The Lucas

So here is the constructive part of my criticism. I suggest you keep your windows for the MMS feeds but encourage your visitors not to use them.

I am working on more functional windows that will allow you to easily switch between feed types (live drop-down to switch between MMS/ustream/HTML5 solution/etc, and with static links to streams).

Originally Posted by HarveyAce

however, I know of a great deal of peole who cannot get the pluggins, and not everyone can get VLC (myself included.)

This is my main issue, over a Ubuntu and Windows 7 laptop, and an iMac running OS X 10.6 with Chrome/FF/Safari (and a Windows VM) the only platform that worked optimally was Safari on OS X and IE in the Windows VM and laptop host.

[The Lucas]

Originally Posted by HarveyAce

not everyone can get VLC (myself included.).

Is it that you can't install it on high school computers? At high schools I've streamed at recently, they had WMP and IE with WMP plugins (unless your IT dept is particularly mean). VLC runs on basically all OS (even Solaris).

Originally Posted by basicxman

Awesome (and good job to #987). Alternative view for those who don't want a very large Flash window?

987 is the High Rollers from Vegas, baby! Everything 'bout them is big and HD. I remember their 2008 LV archive vids. They were shot in full HD, and took forever to download. Then I had to burn them to DVDs and try them on several different computers till I found one that could play them at an acceptable frame rate after coping them to HD (My desktop was due for an upgrade ) Their current system is best viewed as an instant replay not a stream (not good for your system)

Originally Posted by basicxman

This is my main issue, over a Ubuntu and Windows 7 laptop, and an iMac running OS X 10.6 with Chrome/FF/Safari (and a Windows VM) the only platform that worked optimally was Safari on OS X and IE in the Windows VM and laptop host.

Chrome on Unbuntu wasn't working, Google has done some good things with its compatibility in the last 6 months.

[WizenedEE]

Correct me if I'm wrong or being obnoxious, but wasn't this one of the problems HTML5 was supposed to help solve? I've never programmed a website, but I know our team does use the <video> tags. Why not ask regional stream hosts to use that?

Or is it a problem that you can't stream with that, you can just upload video.

However, I am liking the thought of standardizing protocalls, I just want to point out that we should make sure we're using a good protocall before asking everyone to use it.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by basicxman

Disagreed. Web browsers are making their way in the desktop world. While plugins are certainly an overhead, not a large one.

This really isn't true. Flash is a disgusting resource hog. Last week my CPU (4 year old Core 2 Duo) was pegged at 100% all weekend watching all the streams and having the chat open. This weekend it was ~75% with the same number of streams and the system was noticeably more responsive. The big difference was VLC vs. the Flash plugin for a number of the streams. For reference I am using the latest version of Flash on Firefox 3.6.15 in Windows 7.

This is my main issue, over a Ubuntu and Windows 7 laptop, and an iMac running OS X 10.6 with Chrome/FF/Safari (and a Windows VM) the only platform that worked optimally was Safari on OS X and IE in the Windows VM and laptop host.

http://portableapps.com/apps/music_video/vlc_portable

This version of VLC will run without installation off of a flash drive for any locked down school machines running Windows.

I don't have any experience with the Mac version, but there appears to be one here:
http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/21279/portable-vlc/

I'm sure one exists for Linux somewhere, but it doesn't appear to be quite as easy to find.

[artdutra04]

I wanted to post this before, but my lately CD hasn't been working very well with iOS devices. :-/

Whether you are using MMS or Flash, both require plugins/3rd party apps.

That being said, I prefer MMS webcasts. VLC handles any and all MMS webcasts perfectly, VLC has the ability to save MMS streams to your computer, VLC does not have ads in Japanese that constantly pop up over the scores, VLC works on every platform, and VLC playing MMS webcasts uses a fraction of the computer resources Flash does.

[basicxman]

Originally Posted by WizenedEE

Correct me if I'm wrong or being obnoxious, but wasn't this one of the problems HTML5 was supposed to help solve? I've never programmed a website, but I know our team does use the <video> tags. Why not ask regional stream hosts to use that?

Or is it a problem that you can't stream with that, you can just upload video.

While this would be awesome:
a. The HTML5 specification has not been completed yet.
b. HTML5 adoption is only in the latest browsers.

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

This really isn't true. Flash is a disgusting resource hog. Last week my CPU (4 year old Core 2 Duo) was pegged at 100% all weekend watching all the streams and having the chat open. This weekend it was ~75% with the same number of streams and the system was noticeably more responsive.

While I do hate Flash, I haven't had this problem with ustream/YouTube. Even with solutions like Portable VLC, is the general public really going to want to resort to that? I think not. While the CD community might go at great lengths with technology to get what they want - most wouldn't.

Originally Posted by artdutra04

Whether you are using MMS or Flash, both require plugins/3rd party apps.

Correct, but market share is a huge thing, you can probably find Flash on 80%+ of devices (even some mobile devices).

[Joseph Bisch]

How about HTML5 with a flash fallback? Ogg Theora has good browser support and flash can handle safari and ie.

[basicxman]

Originally Posted by Joseph Bisch

How about HTML5 with a flash fallback? Ogg Theora has good browser support and flash can handle safari and ie.

* basicxman approves this message.

[dez250]

Originally Posted by basicxman

...but market share is a huge thing, you can probably find Flash on 80%+ of devices (even some mobile devices).

Over the past few years this disagreement seems to continually come up with what is the best way to broadcast an FRC event? While you bring up market share as a major point, let me explain VLC a little more since it seems you have ignored it or have lack of use with the software. VLC through bundled plugins plays every major media format on all three major OS (Win, OSX, Linux), and it does this at a low level of resources needed. Ustream and Flash based applications not only need 3rd party plugins but also are great resource hogs as previously stated. Now as for market share, I do not know of a media user on a Mac or Linux distro that doesn't use VLC as (non pro) software. The only reason i know people who use WMP or other apps on a Windows based OS instead of VLC is because of their lack of knowledge in use if the program. My suggestion would to use the mms feeds provided and avoid the use of ustream and their ad covered and explicit website.