Another Culture Change

[Lil' Lavery]

The best, and only surefire (IMO), solution to change the culture to universally accept and celebrate teams like 1114 is to make it so the teams who can't compete with 1114 and don't have the caliber of design process of 1114 the minority rather than the majority. When 1114 is the norm, rather than the elite, it will be a lot harder to not appreciate what 1114 accomplishes.

How do we achieve such a lofty goal? I have no idea. I started to ramble about it, but decided it's probably wiser to leave it open ended.

Here at DAWGMA, an alumnus used to joke that 1712 has a little 71 in us. While it was more a play on numbers than anything, I hope one day that every team has more "FRC nerds" on it where they can appreciate great teams when they see them. And for it to be an honest appreciate, not jealousy or contempt.


e; To be fair. I still hate the New York Yankees and always will. Perhaps I'm just biased, but I do think this challenge will be awfully hard to solve.

[Steve W]

1114 is a powerhouse. So are some of the other teams around the country. They did not become that way by chance. Winning is important and to win they must do a lot of things right.

Building a good robot. This is important if you want to win. 1114 does that regularly. I know because the teams that I have been associated with competed with them every year. I also know that they inspired the kids on our teams to be better to try and beat them. This is a good thing. A goal always brings out the best in us all.

Having good contacts. This is an area that 1114 has also excelled. The mentors, Engineers, teachers and parents support their team with time, resources and money. They also have good bonds with other FIRST teams. All of this is good.

Good strategy. If some of the other teams in FIRST ever got the chance to listen in with their team and mentors you would be amazed. From the moment the game is announced they start at it and don't quit till after Championships. Constantly adapting as the weeks go on to make themselves be the best they can be. This also is good.

Building a good team. I am not talking about the robot but about TEAM. This includes EVERY student, mentor, teacher, sponsor and parent that wishes to be involved. Every person has a responsibility and they fulfill it. As each member does their part the team is strengthened. This again is good.

Willing to share. Well maybe not all of their secrets right away but they will let you see and learn from the robot after the competition starts. What teams have learned and taken back to their shops in invaluable. They also share their resources , both parts and manpower to help other teams before season ends and at each competition they attend. I personally have used them when I am going around the pits and see teams in need of help. They are one of the first teams that I ask for assistance from.

I guess what I am trying to say is that 1114 is one of the great stories of FIRST. Built on FIRST principles and excelling with them shows that FIRST does work.

Does it bother me that they continually win? You bet it does. Not because they win but because I haven't come up with a way to beat them. I continually strive to be my best and I wish others would do the same. People and teams never become better by lowering standards and tearing down others around them. They become better by reaching for goals out of their reach and eventually attaining them then setting new goals. This is what 1114 does.

JVN thanks for starting this thread. Your insight is always beneficial. It is not easy to say what must be said but I believe that you have done so a lot better than many could. People should also take note that 1114 is not the only team that I have heard things like this about. Funny thing is that when I have dealt with some of these other teams I find the same model and excellence that I see in 1114. Maybe we can start a new trend in FIRST where excellence is applauded instead of trying to tear it down.

[EricH]

When someone posts on CD with the type of attitude towards a team that was reported as shown to 1114, I stand with the team. More often than not, there is no grounds for the accusation of being mentor-built. More often than not, it isn't the first time that the team has had to defend themselves against that. Usually, the person doing the original post collects a few negative reputation clicks and backs off their stance a *bit*. Or they actually take the time to meet with the team, and do a U-turn. (Same goes for other types of baseless accusations.)

But doing it to their face and consistently? That is taking that attitude to a new low. Whoever was doing this should be ashamed of themselves. Not for having an opinion, but for their chosen method of expressing it. If you want to express that type of opinion, be professional and go to them and express it. Let them explain their methods. You have the option to adopt those methods or not.

FIRST has not specified that student-built teams are better than mentor-built teams. The only thing saying that is pride/jealousy among certain individuals. Maybe they should take that pride/jealousy and instead of trying to beat X powerhouse, they should try to be that powerhouse. Raise the level of competition, and raise the professionalism level at the same time--sounds like a win-win.

[ayeckley]

Hold on everyone - did anyone *actually at Pittsburgh* witness the things reported? I would hate for the Pittsburgh Regional to be unjustly associated with this behavior. I can't address the other allegations, but I was in the stands during the awards ceremonies and didn't notice any booing. Usually when something inappropriate like that happens the crowd responds to the "boo-er" in an overwhelming fashion.

I'm not associated with 1114 so I wouldn't have been the target of these things, but I didn't sense any sort of anti-Canada or anti-1114 vibe this weekend (unless you count statements like "1114 is going to be impossible to beat"). I have great respect for JVN, but something just doesn't sound right to this story - I'm skeptical.

If anyone has any information that someone from 2252 is associated with these allegations please PM me so I can take immediate corrective action.

[Trying to Help]

JVN and others -

It's not excusable and it can, maybe, be fixed with determination and information like Michael C. spoke about. I hope. Team 1114 has helped our team with their excellent information on their website. Their ability to help and lead should never be denigrated.

Sometimes, despite all that you do as a mentor, it might not be enough. A case in point: after GSR, a friend of mine who isn't a FIRST mentor, mentioned that one of her daughter's friends had commented on how rude students from my team had been at GSR. I was shocked to hear that, let me tell you! We had gone over and over again about our expectations for behavior at any team event, never mind a competition. We talked about it quite a bit and I think I may have an inkling as to what went on. We never competed against this other student's team, so I'm thinking that it's probably a case of confusing one team with another. (And if anyone on CD can confirm this behavior rumor and give me details, please pass them along in a PM.)

BUT if I find out that it definitely was one of our students, there will be serious consequences even if it's an "explainable" case. Last year, we had a student who was spoken to by a mentor for just this sort of issue. After a second non-GP incident, he was asked reconsider his priorities and when he could come up with a plan for meeting our expectations, then we'd be happy to talk with him about his place in the team. Unfortunately, we haven't seen him since.

I know we've tried to emulate and teach a sense of fairness, helpfulness and the desire to learn from other teams. I know that we're all human and that we've probably missed some perfect teaching moments at our competition. All we can do is keep trying. I know I will.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by ayeckley

Hold on everyone - did anyone *actually at Pittsburgh* witness the things reported? I would hate for the Pittsburgh Regional to be unjustly associated with this behavior. I can't address the other allegations, but I was in the stands during the awards ceremonies and didn't notice any booing. Usually when something inappropriate like that happens the crowd responds to the "boo-er" in an overwhelming fashion.

I'm not associated with 1114 so I wouldn't have been the target of these things, but I didn't sense any sort of anti-Canada or anti-1114 vibe this weekend (unless you count statements like "1114 is going to be impossible to beat"). I have great respect for JVN, but something just doesn't sound right to this story - I'm skeptical.

If anyone has any information that someone from 2252 is associated with these allegations please PM me so I can take immediate corrective action.

I was not at Pittsburgh nor do I know the teams in question, so I cannot actually attest to the validity of the claim.

However, I do know, with 100% certainty, that there have been similar incidents towards 1114 at the Pittsburgh regional (and other events) before. And that the team in question then, who did not attend Pittsburgh this year, is generally held in high regard by most of FRC. And that team took similar, though far less severe, actions against my team at a later event that year.

Whether or not this issue happened at Pittsburgh this year is almost irrelevant to the greater issue at hand. No, we shouldn't drag the Pittsburgh regionals name through the mud if this isn't true. But the greater point is almost irrelevant, as we all know the root problem exists and should be rectified.

[rsisk]

On behalf of team 2493, we are inspired to try harder to emulate teams like 1114, 148, 1538, 399, 254, 71, 33, 233, 1515, 968, and many many more teams we have met that exemplify the value of FIRST. We make every attempt to learn how such teams become great and do our best to follow in their steps, and push the envelope even further.

Obviously we have some work to do to help others see the benefit of all of us rowing in the same direction.

You can count on us as part of Operation: Change The Culture.

[Karthik]

Thanks to everyone who has expressed their support in this thread and elsewhere via social media. It's always nice to be reminded that there are still lots of people who get it.

Unfortunately the issues that JVN described in his blog aren't new. 1114 has been dealing with these sorts of comments for years. Sometimes they become very public in the case of things like booing, but more often than not they happen when people are hidden behind (or believe they're hidden) a cloak of anonymity. It's not only 1114 who has to deal with this. Over the years, great teams like 47, 67, 71, 111, 148, 217, 233, 254, 469, 2056 among many many others have been needlessly bashed. Most do it privately, but others do it publicly. Regardless, it's not cool.

So how do we stop it? We cannot tolerate it. If you see/hear someone acting this way, call them out on it. Don't just laugh awkwardly and ignore it, squash it. If we passively ignore this type of behavior, it becomes acceptable. Too often people just say "oh, you should take it as a compliment, it means you're good." I'm sorry, but we can do better than that. We need to take a stand at teams who are doing this, directly.

Originally Posted by rutzman

That shock quickly subsided- I hadn't witnessed the occurrences specifically listed in your blog, but I had seen similar events over the course of the regional. The lack of professionalism shown by a handful of people in Pittsburgh was disgusting.

What were these similar events?

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by ayeckley

Hold on everyone - did anyone *actually at Pittsburgh* witness the things reported? I would hate for the Pittsburgh Regional to be unjustly associated with this behavior. I can't address the other allegations, but I was in the stands during the awards ceremonies and didn't notice any booing. Usually when something inappropriate like that happens the crowd responds to the "boo-er" in an overwhelming fashion.

I'm not associated with 1114 so I wouldn't have been the target of these things, but I didn't sense any sort of anti-Canada or anti-1114 vibe this weekend (unless you count statements like "1114 is going to be impossible to beat"). I have great respect for JVN, but something just doesn't sound right to this story - I'm skeptical.

If anyone has any information that someone from 2252 is associated with these allegations please PM me so I can take immediate corrective action.

Yes, I was actually at Pittsburgh and I did witness some of the claims. Others were witnessed by the judges and other event volunteers, who immediately brought them to our team's attention. In no way is this behavior reflective of the Pittsburgh regional, just a bunch of jerks who were in attendance at the Pittsburgh regional. All the volunteers at this event treated us impeccably.

[rutzman]

Originally Posted by Karthik

What were these similar events?

Booing when 1114 was introduced before a match. It was mostly drowned out by the crowd, and I probably would not have noticed if it hadn't come from a group directly behind me.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by EricH

Whoever was doing this should be ashamed of themselves. Not for having an opinion, but for their chosen method of expressing it. If you want to express that type of opinion, be professional and go to them and express it. Let them explain their methods. You have the option to adopt those methods or not.

No, that isn't the issue at all. As JVN pointed out in his blog post, the problem isn't just people being jerks to 1114's face. That itself is a problem, but it's not suddenly okay if you whisper it behind their back instead of to their face. And there are a LOT more people that hold that belief, but aren't stupid enough to show it.

The problem is jealousy, whining, and a lack of respect and appreciation for greatness.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

No, that isn't the issue at all. As JVN pointed out in his blog post, the problem isn't just people being jerks to 1114's face. That itself is a problem, but it's not suddenly okay if you whisper it behind their back instead of to their face. And there are a LOT more people that hold that belief, but aren't stupid enough to show it.

I never said that being jerks behind their back was OK. I said that maybe holders of that opinion should actually talk to 1114 and give them a chance to respond. That's a MUCH better way than harassing them, booing them, or shoving them out of the way.

[Basel A]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

No, that isn't the issue at all. As JVN pointed out in his blog post, the problem isn't just people being jerks to 1114's face. That itself is a problem, but it's not suddenly okay if you whisper it behind their back instead of to their face. And there are a LOT more people that hold that belief, but aren't stupid enough to show it.

The problem is jealousy, whining, and a lack of respect and appreciation for greatness.

Eric suggests that keeping opinions to oneself or publicly announcing them, which you seem to think are both problems, isn't a good idea. He also suggests that obtaining the truth from the team in question, which would imply a respect for that team (perhaps not necessarily its possible greatness), is a better way to go about expressing that opinion.

I don't see a disagreement.

[sammyjalex]

I don't understand how to some degree this becomes an argument of our engineering standards or of how competitively we design and build. Nor do I understand how this conversation to come to being about ignorance or if you build your robot this way or that. I see this as the opening of a concern that we all must address. I think placing this conversation in the context of competition actually hurts our progress. We need to admire and appreciate the accomplishments of the peers in our communities. We cannot see it as something to defeat. Isn't that how we get to this point, because somehow or another, a student begins to think that it isn't about what they learn, or the way they learn, but about who can build the best robot on a norm-based scale or criterion-based? Can we not approach this issue and say why should comparison have such a bearing. Yes, it is the hurtful behavior of a group of students, or perhaps a team, but is it only that? Can we also look at the way that we approach this dialogue of who's winning?

[Ian Curtis]

Has any team ever won a regional and not experienced this in some fashion? Most of us are nowhere near the levels that 148, 1114, 254, 111, etc. do. However, when 1276 won BAE in 2006 we experienced snide remarks (half a dozen), which is half a dozen more than I was expecting. They were all along the lines of "mentor built robot, students don't know anything." I have heard similar murmurs for pretty much every competitive team I know of in the Northeast.

FWIW, I think some of those comments against 1114 should get the offenders kicked out of the event. Perhaps 1114 should move their robot through the pits by yelling, "Team build robot coming through!" ?