Another Culture Change - Page 4

IndySam · #46 14-03-2011, 09:56

I won't go into what has already been said in this thread but I would like add that once you get to know these powerhouse teams you soon learn that they want to help elevated every other team to be as good as they are.

I think the important part of JVN's blog is the need for culture change. We need to all commit that when we hear these kinds of things and see those kind of actions that we will take our own action to educated the offenders. Lets change their minds by kindly explaining to them how wrong they are and take them by the hand to meet some of these fantastic mentors and students.

ks_mumupsi · #47 14-03-2011, 10:02

Again, as many have said here this is what its all about. There is a cultural shift that FIRST needs and it needs to go back to being cooperative and not so competitive.

I will make one point though. A lot of this responsibility lies on the mentors now and the FIRST alums who are mentors and volunteers. We need to bring this back to the students of our teams.

We need to emphasize and reiterate Gracious Professionalism, not only in speech but also in our actions. Because as has been said time and again, actions speak louder than words...

I hope some of the students reading this post heed to this, not only for FIRST but also for other aspects of their lives.

Lil' Lavery · #48 14-03-2011, 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by fox46

I've competed alongside 1114 for quite a number of years both as a student and a mentor. I am very familiar with the negative vibes toward them. I will not lie nor will I take the moral high-road- I don't like competing with them.

Before you jump all over me, let me explain why:

Every year I watch a group of students, teachers, parents, mentors and sponsors pour their hearts and souls into a machine. They regularily stay up until 5am in the morning trying to squeeze in a few more hours of design work. I have watched them struggle to keep their marks from slipping as they try to make their team the best it can be. I have watched parents, teachers and mentors including myself push themselves to and past their mental, physical and emotional limits trying to give 150% - but they do it.
Every - single - year.

And yet every year I see these people show up to a competition with their masterpiece. They are proud of it. They are inspired by what they have accomplished. To make it onto the field is a high- it is the culmination of the thousands of hours of dedication compromises and commitment. They feel on top of the world. This is FIRST.

However, with one match against one of these powerhouse teams these people's hopes and dreams that they might have a shot at winning a regional, award or the acolade of their peers can be dashed to bits after being hopelessly clobbered by a team like 1114.

How are these people supposed to feel after having another team kick dirt all over their dream machine? They ask themselves- "We gave it our all- 150% - and yet it wasn't enough? How do we become a team like that? How did they do it?" At first they feel inspired to find out how this other team was able to produce a result so much better than theirs. Next year they try again.... and they get clobbered. The following year they try- and again they can't reach the "powerhouse" level of competition.

You have to understand that every year teams put so much time and effort - sheer sweat and determination into their machines but it seems hopeless to ever compete on a level playing field with the likes of these powerhouse teams. What was formerly awe and inspiration now turns to frustration and resentment. They feel inadequate and inferior. They have just been shown that their best effort is not good enough.

This is why these feelings exist and why there is much negativity felt for these kinds of "powerhouse" teams.

As for how we change this? Well I really don't know. Lets see what kind of problem solvers these teams really are.

http://www.thebluealliance.com/match/2009il_qf1m3#video

Joe G. · #49 14-03-2011, 10:08

To anyone who accuses teams of this, I pose a simple challenge.

On practice day, stand by the field exit location. Listen to what the student drivers of the "mentor built" robots are talking about, after testing out their machines. I bet you they're talking about what went wrong. I bet you they're talking about ways to improve. I bet you they're using technical words that you may not know the meaning of.

I haven't been wrong yet.

Andy Baker · #50 14-03-2011, 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Line

This starts with the mentors. It's up to us to stamp it out. It's up to us to make it right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Ore

How do we stop this? Mentors can guide students to have a good attitude. For example...

First of all, I agree that these actions against 1114 (and other teams) does need to be pointed out and these ignorant and negative attitudes need to be confronted.

Here is another example:

I recall inspecting a team a few years ago. This team was from a small town where a strong, well-respected FRC team was located. In the pit, the team had two mentors and about four students focused on this conversation.

I started off the inspection process by asking them where they were from. They told me, and then talked about the other team in their area. As they talked about this other team, they said very accusatory things, claiming that this other team cheated by building their robot before the build season started, and they said that the team also had no students work on the robot at all. My first reaction was to try to disarm the situation, by saying that teams often make development robots in the fall, and then build a competition robot during the season. However, this seemed to get the lead mentor more fired up, raising his voice and increasing his claims.

At that time, I asked the two mentors to step out of the pit, away from the kids. What I wanted to tell them, I did not want the kids to hear. I found myself essentially scolding the mentors, so I did not want their students to see that. I asked them if they saw these rules being broken first hand. I asked them if they were 100% sure if no kids touched the robot. Then, I told them that I know this team well enough that neither of their claims are true. I knew about their team's off-season development, and I knew that students were deeply involved in all aspects. Then, I told them that their false claims were not only dangerous to the other team they are blaming, but also very dangerous to the students on their own team, in their own pit. I told them that they cannot make these false claims, and they need to explain what I said to their students who have heard them make these claims today and in the past.

I walked away, disgusted. About an hour later, I came back to the pit, and inspected the robot by only talking to the kids. The kids were very happy to see me and very respectful. The mentors were silent.

I don't know if these mentors are involved in FIRST anymore. If they are, I hope their views are very different.

I am proud that I took this action of confronting these mentors at this time. Other times, I have not. I will definitely be on the lookout for more of these opportunities. We all should be. We are here to educate, inspire, and mentor not only the students, but teams who need guidance, whether they know it or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taylor

... They're rock stars. And nobody hates Joe Perry or Jimmy Page or Jimi Hendrix because they play the guitar well. These folks are idolized and revered - and everybody knows they got to where they are through hard work and a bit of talent.

This is a new view to this. While it is widely understood to have the "I hate the Yankees" view, this view brings a new twist to it. Thanks, Mike.

Sincerely,
Andy B.

RoboMom · #51 14-03-2011, 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Ore

My question then is - can mentors guide other mentors to have a good attitude?

Yes, but it can be hard work.

Nikhil Bajaj · #52 14-03-2011, 11:08

Nearly everybody works incredibly hard in FRC. But why do we have great teams and then good teams and then, just...teams? If performance in FRC was just a function of how much work and time that was put in to the robot, we'd have significantly better robots today. Everyone would have perfectly-running vision code, buttery-smooth drivetrains and mechanisms, and minimal robot breakdowns. But we don't have that.

We have teams that work incredibly hard and all they can field is a box on wheels. On the other side, we have teams that work incredibly hard and they come up with elegant, dominating machines. Why? That's complicated, and has to do with resources, brain power, organization, strategy, work ethic, and sometimes luck. But in the end, the why doesn't matter.

To the "haters" as they have been referred to in this thread: Come on guys, grow up. This is how the real world is. You know that. We all know that. So why would it be different in FRC, which is as real-world a competition as it gets?

Where FRC is different from the real world is NOT THE COMPETITION. It is in the culture surrounding the competition. Here's the difference. Let's say you have a company that is beating the crap out of its competitors in certain fields. Go to that company, and say "How did you do it? Tell us your strategies, your great technologies, and the secret to your success!"

If you are a competitor, that company is going to tell you to buzz off.

HERE IS THE DIFFERENCE: If you asked 148, or 1114, or 217, or 71, or 111, or 233, or 67, or WHOEVER you think is a great FRC team...THEY WILL TELL YOU THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION. THEY WANT OTHER PEOPLE TO HAVE SUCCESS LIKE THEM.

People who think otherwise are dangerous to the success of FIRST in general.

Alpha Beta · #53 14-03-2011, 11:35

I've appreciated the transparency some of the powerhouse teams have shown through their videos, blogs, and post-season white papers. It has gone along way to removing my feelings of jealosy and replacing it with admiration. I now assume the best about teams instead of the worst.

We are developing a culture on our team where we stand and applaud for every award and especially for the teams that beat us. Some of our students have to just do it even when they don't feel like it on the inside. I have had direct conversations with some of our students when I think someone doesn't get it, and we are willing to tell a student to take off our team shirt until they can. This also includes having conversations with students after we've been successful whose boasting makes it more difficult for other teams to be gracious towards us.

We have never been past the semi-finals in KC. We have been beaten by different teams every time. The variety of teams at the top is appreciated. I understand how losing to the same team every year can strain emotions. While powerhouses have a "home" regional it is also nice to see them vary the 2nd regional that they attend to avoid the appearance of beating up on a weaker region if they "always" win. (There are many circumstances where this is not possible and should not be used as a judgement on any team.)

It also helps when teams show a genuine interest in the design process of others. We try to stop by every pit during the weekend and find something to appreciate. We are developing relationships. I read in a book somewhere that "Listening disarms anger." Hearing what other teams have to share builds a bond that helps to overcome resentment. This is easier in a "home" regional than one you are a guest at.

Thank You JVN for bringing up this issue. We will not be tolerant in our corner of the world of the type of behavior you described in ourselves, on our team, or with anyone we might exhibit influence on.

Rich Kressly · #54 14-03-2011, 11:48

I don't have a lot new to add, however I will most likely write a lot here as I usually do. I've been carrying a similar torch for a long while now (I'm sure you can find at least a dozen similar posts of mine on these boards if you'd like) and I'm glad it's still a conversation.

The issue isn't about 1114 here at all. 1114 is fine, is going to be fine, and will inspire the thousands they always inspire and win a lot of hardware while doing it. It's unfortunate they are targets here, but clearly they're not the only targets. In recent years I've seen this type of situation first-hand and it's anything but acceptable. This singular situation is an example of a growing culture problem (I think I called it "Kressly's Mainstreamers Theory" at one point).

Early in my FIRST years I remember viewing certain teams as "cheaters" too. Thankfully, I was well-mentored, listened to the right voices (both inside and well beyond my own team) until I had a better understanding. Bottom line is that once I REALLY got to know those teams, I was more amazed than anything.

For those of you who think it's demoralizing to a team to "lose" year after year to the same team, I'd bluntly state that I believe team leadership needs to refocus all of those team members with a consistent message about real meanings in FIRST and about the stark difference between the "full effort to win" vs. the actual winning itself. Besides, these powerhouses all need alliance partners, don't they?

I also find it sadly, and highly amusing, that many teams out there look at this situation as a "better robot because they have more access to goodies" situation. It takes ZERO DOLLARS AND ZERO EQUIPMENT to develop a sound game strategy and then scout (paper and pencil forms, maybe?) voraciously at events. If you match a sound strategy with a robot that can even play part of the game well (for example this year a box on wheels that plays defense and deploys a consistent minibot would certainly have a shot at the elims) and couple that with REAL scouting data from what you observe on the field of play you'll have yourself "in the mix" on the field and you'll build credibility with others. This isn't just about working hard, it's about working smart - knowing your strengths, timelines, and capabilities. If you don't have the infrastructure of an 1114 or 148 then trying to do as much as they do, the same way is planning for disaster. Also don't forget the other, equally wonderful award entry submissions that help you mark the culture change in your community.

I for one will raise my hand as a mentor that has NEVER helped to build an elite robot, but I have been able to, through my efforts, effectively bring about positive culture change in two communities (working on the third, now) and have contributed positively to many lives in the process. My teams, for the most part, have been competitive on the field, too. What more could I ever ask for? And much of the learning I've/we've done has been from the "powerhouse" teams because they've been so willing to share.

Quite frankly, those mentors/leaders/students/teams focused on solely extrinsic motivators (trophies) who are not EQUALLY espousing intrinsic motivators are missing the point altogether and pretty much haven't REALLY CLOSELY listened to Woodie and others. In my experience the more we focus in the intrinsic, the more the extrinsic happen anyway.

Like I said, I'm glad this is still a conversation, but I long for the day we will no longer need to have it. As Sean says, it's not a short, nor easy road.

CoachPoore · #55 14-03-2011, 11:51

Thanks to JVN for airing this issue. Science and technology can solve many problems, but they cannot change the fact that jealousy is a very corrosive and destructive force. We cannot prevent people from feeling jealous of another team's repeated successes, but we can make it unacceptable for those feelings to be expressed in the kind of ways that 1114 had to suffer in Pittsburgh. For this to happen, the "silent majority" must not remain silent. In most cases, a gentle rebuke is probably all that is required - we don't have to be obnoxious to deal with those who are behaving in an obnoxious way.

I've been fortunate enough to see 1114's robots up close on several occasions at Championships and at IRI, and to be able to talk to their team members. I have come away from those interactions believing that there is no reason why our team cannot aspire to be as good as they are and achieve some of the same success. Their success is not magic, and it's certainly not "unfair". It's inspirational.

I would love to have 1114 (or any of the other powerhouse teams that have been mentioned in this thread) come and inspire us up close at the Granite State Regional next year

pandamonium · #56 14-03-2011, 12:00

H.A.T.E.R.S. = Having Anger Towards Everyone Reaching Success

PhilBot · #57 14-03-2011, 12:13

I did attend the Pittsburgh regional.

I had heard beforehand that 1114 was expected to be a powerhouse at the competition, and personally that excited me, because there is nothing worse than a regional full of Toasters on Wheels.

From practice day, the mystique started to grow. How come they weren’t in any matches? Was their robot working? No, I was told… they never show their robot ahead of time. I thought that was odd, but I’d learned not to believe urbane legends.

Then when they did start playing later in the day, their capabilities were very evident. I immediately said “why didn’t we think of that, and that, and that?”

Their team sat behind us in the stands so I got a few moments to chat, but they were very quiet and restrained. On Friday, after a grueling day, my wife and I happened to pick the same restaurant as 1114 to eat dinner. All their talk was about the robot and what to do to make it run better (unlike our team for sure).

Several times during the event I did try and go over to have a look at their robot, and talk to their team about how they organized themselves, but I will admit to being somewhat intimidated, and I didn’t have much success. They seemed very protective of their robot and tended to keep much to themselves. It was difficult to even start up a conversation. Perhaps this was in response to feeling somewhat under the microscope.

However, this was very much in contrast to the other Canadian teams at the event who seemed very eager to chat with me when I did the rounds with our junior team members.

BTW, their singer did an AMAZING job of their National Anthem.

This was my first time competing with 1114 in a regional, so I don’t know if their reserved nature, on and off the field is typical. I also don’t know if the “apparent” stand-offish nature that I observed is real or imagined. I could understand their possible reluctance to show off their entire tech to other US teams. As a non-American (I grew up in Australia) I’ve experienced the fear more than once that the USA comes in with open arms and leaves with all your goodies

I believe 1114 has won Chairmans several times, so they clearly understand the FIRST mission. Perhaps they could help us eliminate the “haters” by showing US a bit more about what makes THEM the team that they are (rather than just a great robot).

I for one would love to find out what motivates them, and try to apply it to my own team. Next time I'll try harder to start a conversation.

Phil.

BrendanB · #58 14-03-2011, 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachPoore

I would love to have 1114 (or any of the other powerhouse teams that have been mentioned in this thread) come and inspire us up close at the Granite State Regional next year

Second!

BandChick · #59 14-03-2011, 12:55

It has admittedly been a long time since I posted anything on CD, but this blog has provoked a reaction in me unlike almost anything else I've read in a long time. As with everyone else, I will do my best to refrain from restating all the things already in this thread, but I do want to say THANK YOU, John. Thank you for, if nothing else, doing your own part to change the culture and to make this a present issue - the problem can't be fixed until we are all aware of it. Also, my humble apologies to Karthik and the rest of the Simbots for the way they were treated, here's hoping that NEVER happens again!

I would like to say that I am very glad to have been raised in FIRST by several top notch teams and mentors. When I started as a rookie in FIRST, I was immediately accepted into the community by teams 103 and 25. Here on CD I got to know some of our WFA winners, our UFH winners, and several other amazing students and mentors that really "got" the FIRST message and lived by the ethos of Gracious Professionalism. These teams, students, and mentors taught me about respect, compassion, teamwork, and encouraged me not just to build a successful robot, but to build a successful team.

With one comes the other - powerhouse teams get their successful team using the robot as the medium, while other teams (like mine) use their teamwork and collaboration as the medium, and that begets the successful machine. I am often impressed, humbled, and proud of the powerhouse teams in FIRST because they are the ones that are constantly in their pits learning, teaching, struggling, and of course, having fun. They can be some of the best role models, just like our Chairman's Award winning teams.

I am going to add on an example to Rich Kressly's post, where he talks about needing good strategists and scouters. This is ABSOLUTELY true.

This year for the first time, my team (1089) made it to the finals at the New Jersey Regional. We believe we built a pretty good machine, but we also knew that there were certainly teams faster/better/stronger than us. We built our alliance for eliminations based on data and knowledge from our scouters and headed into eliminations against other alliances. We got smashed by 1923, 25, and 1860 in the first match of quarterfinals (124-22 - which was the national high score for Week 1, btw). I have considered for many years 25 to be among the ranks of the powerhouse teams, and I am always trying to play on par to their level. After our initial loss, our alliance's drive teams and a few mentors sat down and plotted out a new strategy, and we won - quarters, semis, and there we were in finals. We were eliminated in finals by another great alliance (1676, 2016, and 303), and as we were, our drive coach and I looked to each other and exclaimed "No regrets! What a great play, and what an amazing set of teams to lose to!" There was truly little to no disappointment by the mentors or students on my team - we came to work hard and play hard, regardless of the results, and our take-home message from the regional was that the weekend was fantastic, but we have improvements to make.

I am often reminded of the year I returned to my pit at Championships to find my students having a dance party after their last match of the weekend, even though they had lost all but one match, AND fried their C-RIO. There were no comments of frustration, disappointment, or anger. Instead, the students were glad to have come as far as they did, and were talking anxiously about improvements they could make during the off-season.

Also this year, the NJ Regional was visited by a team from California, and a member of their team wrote a letter to the judges - which they read aloud to the entire audience during the award ceremony. The member thanked the teams in NJ for being welcoming, supportive, and incorporating them into the community of the regional right off the bat. I was proud, in that moment, to call myself a FIRST mentor, and a member of NJ FIRST - I almost cried.

As for my team, you can BET I will be reminding my students that the behavior demonstrated at the Pittsburgh Regional is wholly unacceptable, and reminding them why professionalism (all aspects of it) NEEDS to be the way they act.

Thanks again, John, and everyone else working with him to make this change happen.

Karthik · #60 14-03-2011, 12:56