Another Culture Change

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by fox46

I've competed alongside 1114 for quite a number of years both as a student and a mentor. I am very familiar with the negative vibes toward them. I will not lie nor will I take the moral high-road- I don't like competing with them.

Before you jump all over me, let me explain why:

Every year I watch a group of students, teachers, parents, mentors and sponsors pour their hearts and souls into a machine. They regularily stay up until 5am in the morning trying to squeeze in a few more hours of design work. I have watched them struggle to keep their marks from slipping as they try to make their team the best it can be. I have watched parents, teachers and mentors including myself push themselves to and past their mental, physical and emotional limits trying to give 150% - but they do it.
Every - single - year.

And yet every year I see these people show up to a competition with their masterpiece. They are proud of it. They are inspired by what they have accomplished. To make it onto the field is a high- it is the culmination of the thousands of hours of dedication compromises and commitment. They feel on top of the world. This is FIRST.

However, with one match against one of these powerhouse teams these people's hopes and dreams that they might have a shot at winning a regional, award or the acolade of their peers can be dashed to bits after being hopelessly clobbered by a team like 1114.

How are these people supposed to feel after having another team kick dirt all over their dream machine? They ask themselves- "We gave it our all- 150% - and yet it wasn't enough? How do we become a team like that? How did they do it?" At first they feel inspired to find out how this other team was able to produce a result so much better than theirs. Next year they try again.... and they get clobbered. The following year they try- and again they can't reach the "powerhouse" level of competition.

You have to understand that every year teams put so much time and effort - sheer sweat and determination into their machines but it seems hopeless to ever compete on a level playing field with the likes of these powerhouse teams. What was formerly awe and inspiration now turns to frustration and resentment. They feel inadequate and inferior. They have just been shown that their best effort is not good enough.

This is why these feelings exist and why there is much negativity felt for these kinds of "powerhouse" teams.

As for how we change this? Well I really don't know. Lets see what kind of problem solvers these teams really are.

I started FIRST as a student back in 1998 on Team 188. Our robot was not very good that year. Countless hours were put in by 30 high school students that year, and we made a robot we were very proud of, but frankly we got our butts handed to us at EPCOT. What I remember from that year is being awe-struck by teams like 111, 47, 71, 16 and 126. Their level of excellence and dominance was simply inspiring. I remember thinking "One day, I want to have a team like that. I want to make people's jaws drop they way mine did this weekend." After years of hard work with 1114 we were able to make that happen. It didn't happen overnight, but it sure did happen. It's not hopeless, it definitely is possible to rise to an elite level.

[thefro526]

As embarrassing as it is to say this, during my Freshman and Sophomore year on 816 (And I would assume the years before), we were one of those teams that looked down on teams that were well funded, had ample resources and built strong machines year in and year out. My first exposure to robotics was Duel on the Delaware 2005 where some of the older team members swore up and down that Team XXX didn't build their robot and things like that.

At the end of the 2007 season, my class (Class of 2009) became the team leaders, and we WANTED to be like those upper tier teams. We knew that we didn't have the resources that they did, but we knew that we could build a robot that was as competitive - it just might not have been as pretty. In 2008 we were the #2 seed at NJ with an 8-0 record.

From that point forward, the attitude on our team shifted and we began to respect those top tier teams, knowing that with enough hard work we could be as good as them. Interestingly enough, I haven't heard one student on our team accuse another team of not building their robot since 2008. (It took a little longer for some of the long-time mentors to break the habit)

I think the way to Change the Culture (or at least get the ball rolling) is to show all teams two things:

1) "Engineer Built" Robots aren't always successful.

2) "Student Built" Robots can compete with, and win against Top-Tier teams - if the "Student Built" team works hard enough.

Personally, I find it offensive that some Students will call any Top Tier robot Engineer built. Just because the robot was made with care, looks professional, and works well, doesn't mean that Students didn't build it.

(On a semi-related note, I envy 1114, 148, 217, 254, 25, 2016, 2056, 111, 1625 etc in the same way that many people envy the best sports teams. I'd love to beat any one of them, and to be perfectly honest it's one of my goals - because if you can beat the best, then you are one of the best.)

[fox46]

Well I've been trying for about 10 years now to bring a team to your level but haven't been able to figure it out. Came close with 854 though. Kudos to you Karthik for getting it right.

[David Dawson]

As a mentor I am a bit more calm when I go to the MI districts and its easy to see why some students are upset and act the way they do. First off they are High School students that interpret everything they see at face value and use assumptions or mentor input to fill in the gaps about the things they don't know. To make things easier I'm only going to speak of teams that built robots that function the way they are supposed to 70% of the time.

So when team 9999 builds a good bot that works and plays the game like it was designed to, faces a 217 254 and 33 alliance or just one powerhouse team like 1114 they lose and then get to thinking. First comes the simple thoughts about unique great ideas like 33's arm last year or 233's arm in 07, works and how team 9999 can build them. That's looking at robotics at face value which is ok.

Where students on teams like 9999 go wrong is when they don't know how something works like 148's sheet metal or wildstangs drive trains. They then assume it was mentor built without knowing what those teams did in the first place to build those bots. You would think this is an easy fix with a little mentor guidance. But instead of mentors doing research and understanding what the power house teams do and inform their students on what to do. They take the easy way out and say a mentor did it.

TL;DR Students will be students, It's the mentors job to do the right thing.

[JesseK]

It's really unfortunate when this happens to a team, yet even more so when it comes from the non-FRC community. While we should strive to change the culture of FIRST as has been stated, I think we should be glad it only happens in the closed world of FIRST for most teams who have high-visibility in their local communities and regionals. The rest of the world, with its vast majority of opinions and options, is a far more insidious place.

[Rich Olivera]

It is obvious that 1114 strives for a high standard of excellence on and off the field. The tragic thing is that people seem to believe the goal of excellence on the field is in conflict with the ideals of FIRST. They couldn’t be more wrong. To illustrate my point, let me describe my team’s experience working with 1114.
As some of you may know, my team (2041) was lucky enough to be picked by 1114 and 469 at the championship last year. In our very first match together, we cracked our center drive wheels in a shoving match with 1732. After the match, a mentor from 1114 named Jeff helped us inspect our robot for damage. The conversation went something like this:
Me: “It looks like we damaged some of our wheels.”
<Jeff takes a look>
Jeff: “Well, those are wheels KOP wheels, we have plenty of those. What will it take to fix the problem?”
Me “Well to replace the wheel all you need to do is…..”
Jeff “No no, what will it take to FIX the problem”
I was shocked. The elimination rounds run at a fast pace. Here Jeff was insisting that we find some way to reinforce the wheels, fabricate it, and install it all between curie divisional elimination matches. I would have been ok with a solution that would have survived the elims. 1114 wanted to solve the problem for good. More importantly, this mentality permeated every student behind that curtain. Every student became committed to the idea of making us better, even this late in the game. In short, every student was inspired in a way I have not seen before in FIRST. This is what 1114 brings to the community.
Photo evidence of the fix implemented:
Before:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/daniele...7623898298752/
After:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/daniele...7623898298752/

Another great example comes later that day. In the last match of the finals, 2041 spent half the match stuck in a goal. When we freed ourselves, we clumsily blocked two more of our partners goals. In short, 2041 felt as though it cost the alliance the championship. It was obvious that 1114 wanted to win. They had to feel disappointed. No one can deny that. However, when it was all said and done, they went out of their way to thank us and encourage us. Rather than dwell on their own disappointment, they helped a relatively inexperienced team cope with its disappointment. I was touched by their sincerity. If that is not gracious professionalism, I don’t know what is.
It’s been said before, but apparently it needs to be repeated: Get to know the powerhouse teams. Learn how they operate, how they problem-solve, and how they act. Not only will you be pleasantly surprised, you will be inspired.
1114 is a perfect example of this. It saddens me that they are so badly misunderstood.

[Darren Collins]

Originally Posted by Karthik

I started FIRST as a student back in 1998 on Team 188. Our robot was not very good that year. Countless hours were put in by 30 high school students that year, and we made a robot we were very proud of, but frankly we got our butts handed to us at EPCOT. What I remember from that year is being awe-struck by teams like 111, 47, 71, 16 and 126. Their level of excellence and dominance was simply inspiring. I remember thinking "One day, I want to have a team like that. I want to make people's jaws drop they way mine did this weekend." After years of hard work with 1114 we were able to make that happen. It didn't happen overnight, but it sure did happen. It's not hopeless, it definitely is possible to rise to an elite level.

As a mentor, I felt the same way during our rookie year in 2007. We had a slow, tippy robot that we were proud of. However, upon seeing excellent teams at our regional and championships, we were inspired to work harder and learn from others.

When I see a well organized team with an efficient, elegant robot, I am motivated to learn more so that I can provide greater opportunities for my own students. Each year, our students and mentors seek to learn and improve through our own experiences and from the work of other teams. I ask my students to learn from others' robots and team organization and take the good and use it.

Wallowing is self pity and insulting the hard work of highly successful teams is damaging for everyone; Nothing is inspirational about it. This type of behavior should be confronted by all in an attempt to elimate it entirely.

[martin417]

I became involved with FIRST in 2008 (yes, that makes me a noob). It was 1114 that really inspired me to stay involved. I was green, and knew nothing about FIRST that year. We got to go to championships where I saw 1114 and their awesome robot. I realized that our robot had the POTENTIAL to be just as good, if the execution had been better. I was happy that we come away with the Xerox creativity award that year. I also came away with the determination to improve. I knew that our team had the ability to be as good as anybody else, we just needed the experience and leadership. We have come a long way, but we are not yet at the "powerhouse" level. What I can say is that we have improved every year. Last year we had a blast, and did well, playing head to head in the quarterfinals on Galileo against another powerhouse, the Thunderchickens. I hope to get the opportunity to play against (or better yet, with) a powerhouse team again this year, hopefully with different results.

Is our robot 100% designed and built by student? No. Do the students have 100% say-so over all decisions? yes. Do the mentors help with design and build? Absolutely. Are we focused on winning? You bet. Winning is the motivation for excellence. Who wants to work as hard as you can, and not do everything you can to win? This past Saturday we spent 14 hours at the school modifying the robot because we came up with an idea that would make us better. We had an excellent bot Saturday morning, but we decided it was worth the effort to make it better. The students knew the challenge involved, and were willing to put in the time and effort make it a little better. The motivation for that willingness is teams like Simbotics that always have a great robot. Don't look at them as spoilers, look to them for inspiration. Do your best to beat them. I like to think they will respect you for it.

[BandChick]

Originally Posted by D Collins

When I see a well organized team with an efficient, elegant robot, I am motivated to learn more so that I can provide greater opportunities for my own students. Each year, our students and mentors seek to learn and improve through our own experiences and from the work of other teams. I ask my students to learn from others' robots and team organization and take the good and use it.

Wallowing is self pity and insulting the hard work of highly successful teams is damaging for everyone; Nothing is inspirational about it. This type of behavior should be confronted by all in an attempt to elimate it entirely.

I absolutely agree. Our team has built good robots, and TERRIBLE robots. But we firmly believe that there is plenty to learn from your mistakes, and in turn, from the successes of others. Several members of my team spend time in the pits learning about OTHER team's innovations, and powerhouse teams are consistently the ones we are ENVIOUS of, and asking thousands of questions about.

Be proud of what you can do with whatever means you're given, and strive to do one better next year. Remember that competition is a CELEBRATION of the journey you took to get there. Every team's journey (no matter if they're a powerhouse or a "regular" team) is just as long and stressful. Every student is equally vested in the process, in their machine and team, and that in itself should be empowering. As long as you're doing your best, you should be having a great time!

[JaneYoung]

It's interesting how a consensus is forming around the attitude of the adult leaders of teams and the FIRST community and that they make the different in the shaping and changing of attitudes within the team. Yet many self-proclaimed 'student led' teams never give credit to that aspect of their team or accept it. Truth is, mentors/adult leaders make or break the program, on the field and off the field.

The idea of adults and students working together towards achieving a goal, beginning within the team, but capable of moving outwardly in stunning directions - is foreign to many, including teams. As new members enter the teams/regions, it is up to the teams/regions to have developed training programs that educate the students and the adults. It's an iterative process and if it isn't in place, situations like Pittsburgh arise. It's not just the robot that requires continual improvement - it is the team and the team philosophy/attitude. That becomes very obvious in situations like the ones discussed in this thread.

Jane

[Rich Kressly]

The other thing I find in the "powerhouse" teams is that, no matter how good they get, they continue to learn from their community. Their own pride/ego is always in check and they never stop considering that there may be great ideas out there they can use.

Ex 1: Just this year, 148 (through JVN's blog) tells us that perhaps the best part of their manipulator design cam directly from the 2007 Team 67 robot.

Ex 2: Team 1114 in 2006. They had already been exceedingly successful on the field and with awards. It was the same year they manufactured a part for 1712's rookie robot and then delivered to to PA from Canada! Yet, anything but full of themselves they wanted to improve their chances with Chairman's. They were certainly a worthy team, but hungered to know what I knew/thought about it since I had been with 103 in 2003 and spent time as a Sr. Mentor as well. So, over instant messenger, for maybe a 2 hour period I brain dumped to Karthik everything I knew about the award, the entry, maintaining the team's integrity, giving his team the best chance to win, but doing it the "right" way as well. This involved some review of their previous work and pushing some files in his direction. Mind you this all took place after midnight the way I recall. Karthik then turned around, took the info to his team, and they implemented from the lessons learned where they could. Egoless. Hungry. Work ethic. 1114 happened to win a regional CA that year. Because they deserved to, because they worked at it, and because they learned from others. While still on the field with the trophy, Karthik pulled out his phone, dialed my number, and I heard a crying student say "thank you." Class act. I have no idea how much I helped them, but I can tell you that the feeling I had inside from that phone call was nearly equal to my own team winning the CCA in 2003.

[Dmentor]

We are FIRST. Our mission is “to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders”. I fail to see how deprecating, denigrating, and downright boorish behavior towards any individual or team helps us accomplish our mission. We represent such a tiny minority in the world. Accordingly, we need to all be pulling in the same direction if we are going to realize our stated vision. We should be celebrating every potential new science and technology leader regardless of which number is on their t-shirt.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by fox46

I've competed alongside 1114 for quite a number of years both as a student and a mentor. I am very familiar with the negative vibes toward them. I will not lie nor will I take the moral high-road- I don't like competing with them.

Before you jump all over me, let me explain why:

Every year I watch a group of students, teachers, parents, mentors and sponsors pour their hearts and souls into a machine. They regularily stay up until 5am in the morning trying to squeeze in a few more hours of design work. I have watched them struggle to keep their marks from slipping as they try to make their team the best it can be. I have watched parents, teachers and mentors including myself push themselves to and past their mental, physical and emotional limits trying to give 150% - but they do it.
Every - single - year.

And yet every year I see these people show up to a competition with their masterpiece. They are proud of it. They are inspired by what they have accomplished. To make it onto the field is a high- it is the culmination of the thousands of hours of dedication compromises and commitment. They feel on top of the world. This is FIRST.

However, with one match against one of these powerhouse teams these people's hopes and dreams that they might have a shot at winning a regional, award or the acolade of their peers can be dashed to bits after being hopelessly clobbered by a team like 1114.

How are these people supposed to feel after having another team kick dirt all over their dream machine? They ask themselves- "We gave it our all- 150% - and yet it wasn't enough? How do we become a team like that? How did they do it?" At first they feel inspired to find out how this other team was able to produce a result so much better than theirs. Next year they try again.... and they get clobbered. The following year they try- and again they can't reach the "powerhouse" level of competition.

You have to understand that every year teams put so much time and effort - sheer sweat and determination into their machines but it seems hopeless to ever compete on a level playing field with the likes of these powerhouse teams. What was formerly awe and inspiration now turns to frustration and resentment. They feel inadequate and inferior. They have just been shown that their best effort is not good enough.

This is why these feelings exist and why there is much negativity felt for these kinds of "powerhouse" teams.

As for how we change this? Well I really don't know. Lets see what kind of problem solvers these teams really are.

I can certainly appreciate this sentiment. Being from a small-town GTA team, with limited (growing in the last few years, but still) resources, and a very small mentor-base to depend on, I'm certainly familiar with the "give-110% and its still not enough" feelings when being crushed by <insert powerhouse here>.

I regularly see this anti-powerhouse view within my own team, the whole "professionally- versus student-built" argument, and I regularly try to correct them, and point out that programs such as 1114's, 217's, 2056's, 148's et al, still do what FIRST is all about: inspiring students to embark on a life journey in changing the culture, by becoming scientists, engineers, technologists and mathematicians, they simply do it in different ways to how teams like ours do. Indeed, the programs of these powerhouses inspire people well beyond the walls of their own schools.

Big name sponsors with deep pockets, laser-cutting, sheet-metal stamping, and AutoCAD/Inventor drawn designs do not a dominating robot make. The members of 1075 should be well aware of this, since in the off-season of 2008, after our robot was a complete flop during the regular season, we set out to be competitive in the off-season by copying some of the best design elements of 1114's world-champion robot, and adding our own twist to it.

Its no real secret that we did this; indeed, Karthik had been notified by text-message within minutes of our arrival at the first event we went to with it. I'm not ashamed, imitation is the highest form of flattery. We went on to win at that event, and the other offseason we went to that year. For me, this was the confirmation I needed to prove that it does not take all those things to have a winning robot. What is needed to have a winning robot, is a winning design, coupled with some mechanical reliability (Despite winning at Kettering Kickoff 2008, we did not play in the finals, due to a drivetrain-destroying event, redesigned in time for Brunswick Eruption).

I think its fairly undeniable that Simbot SS (1114's 2008 robot) was a winning design. It won 2 GM Industrial Design awards, 3 regionals, and Championship. (According to FIRSTs website, anyway)

While Simbot SS was a beautiful sheet-metal machine, worthy of the awards it received, as well as the envy, and no doubt received its fair share of this "well, thats a professionally-built robot" nonsense, our implementation of the key design elements of it was far less pretty, far less costly, far less well known, but our robot won the only two events it went to.

What is needed to win FRC events is a mechanically-reliable winning design, and drivers that know how to drive their robot. ANY team, regardless of resources is capable of producing a mechanically-reliable robot. The key to this is to not attempt something that is beyond your means. Know what you can achieve, and work within it. ANY team is capable of producing a winning design. This does NOT require anything more than brainpower, and time. ANY team is capable of having drivers that know how to drive their robot. The key is practice. I often see robots that are quite capable of doing well have matches chalked up in the L column due to a lack of driver-experience. Whether this means building a second robot so they can practice between ship and competition, or whether this means building a SIMPLER robot, so you can be finished earlier in the build, I leave up to you and your resources.

[IndySam]

If we are sharing 1114 stories then I will share my "this is why they're so good" moment about 1114.

My team was at IRI, the game was Overdrive. I had never had much exposure to 1114 other than a brief conversation with Karthik on the floor at The Championship so I really knew nothing about them other than their great bots.

We took our bot to the practice floor and there was 1114, they were tweaking their autonomous mode. They had by far the best bot that year with an amazing autonomous mode but there they were taking the time to squeeze out just a little bit more. They never stopped trying to improve even when they were already great.

That's why they are the best and that's the story I will gladly share with anyone I hear disparaging them.

[Akash Rastogi]

I'll share a story about the kind of students Simbotics raises.

Atlanta 2010- MORT had designed one of the worst robots in our team's history (many things during build season just did not work out).

Chris Lyddiatt from 1114 knew we were not having a competitive year, so he asked if he could spend his time in Atlanta with our team.

Chris was by far the most helpful person our team has ever worked with from another team. His skill and knowledge finally had us using our swerve drive correctly which had given us issues all season. He helped design a new hanging system as well. Within the three days of competition, our pit crew and mentors became very good friends with Chris and came to admire his level of professionalism and knowledge. We all hung out together afterwards too, he even popped on a MORT t-shirt.

A quote right from his thank you to our team:

"I would just like to thank everyone on MORT for welcoming me with open arms to the team. I had an amazing time during the Championships and am looking forward to more competitions with you guys. If anytime I can help anyone out with anything shoot me a message and i will gladly help.

Thanks again

Chris L"

How often do you hear someone thanking you after they fix the functionality of your robot?

If you ever dare to think these students don't know what is going on in their teams, or that a robot is "mentor built," go talk to them, ask them for help. When 11's veteran mentors and students all showed Chris thanks, he thanked us back for a wonderful Championship experience, even with a middle of the pack team like ours.

These kids know a lot more than you know and will be more respected than most others ever will.