Another Culture Change

[PhilBot]

Originally Posted by Karthik

Urban legend indeed. We weren't in our morning practice matches because we were upgrading our deployment and dealing with Banebot issues.

I feel your pain on that one. Had the same problem in Rack 'N Roll.

Originally Posted by Karthik

I look forward to that conversation.

I'll hold you to that.
I have FTC and FLL tickets to Nationals, and I know you have an FRC ticket.
You going to be there?

[fuzzwaz]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but I've started to notice students from other teams talk this way about Chairman's teams.

I know personally from students talking about 503's chairmans to my face.

There’s a mentality out there that if you are well funded, you can just pay your way to the top. Teams can buy resources, advertisement- use money to do all the outreach for them.

We actually got criticized for having a major sponsor for 11 years? Somehow, it gave us an undeniable edge for community outreach because of our funding?

It doesn’t feel good at all...

[Chris is me]

I can buy the argument that it's a bit intimidating to talk to them in the pit. They are all very driven and busy, and don't necessarily have the time to embrace their crowd with open arms. It's not a flaw of 1114's nor does it even begin to justify what happened to them, but on a busy day like Thursday I could understand why someone might get a negative impression.

I'll contrast that to an interaction I had with 217 at the Championship. I walked over to get a picture of their robot. Their driver at the time basically invited me in, proceeding to give me a nice 10 minute tour of their robot. They flipped it over, turned it on, showed how all the subsystems worked including the pincher and nonadrive, and talked about their design tradeoffs. It was like asking for a small glass of water and being given a 40 gallon drum.

I would reach some conclusion and say that teams could be even more proactive about being outgoing at competitions if they don't want to be hated, but that honestly shouldn't be necessary. Plus, 1114 really does get it. I happened to be visiting the St. Catharines / Niagara Falls region last summer and 1114 offered me a tour of their facilities before I could even ask. If that's not professionalism and going above and beyond, I don't know what is.

The most surprising thing about the visit, though, is that Simbotics turned out to really be not all that different from any other team. They worked out of a school shop with a handful of mills, lathes, and other equipment. They had worked their way into getting a decent work space, but there were a lot of closets and hallways; I bet they probably started off with just the little shop out back. 1114's shop (and school) is virtually identical to 2791's. I'd say we're a little better off. 1114 has everything they did because they work harder. More sponsors, recruiting engineers to help, the IFI partnership.

The best part of the tour? Not one mentor was present. None. The meeting I was at was 100% students. The students ran the tour and explained the details of every last thing I asked about. It was impressive, to say the least.

[Chris86]

Though my team (86) only competes in the Florida Regional every year, I pay attention to the powerhouse teams because they are just awesome to watch. Seeing these teams at the championship or even by looking at some of the teams at our regional, it is so amazing to see the technology that gets put into their robot. It is truly inspiring to see some of the things that are put into a robot (my favorite is 148 this year) and it drives me to try and beat them. I'm that kind of competitive person that likes being the underdog, and I love that they bring out amazing competition every year to fight against. That being said, I am also jealous of these teams and there are a few things in FIRST culture that do need to be changed.

1 - This is a specific example that I will generalize later - I wish my team had a CNC machine... you lucky few...your robots are just beautiful. WOW /jealousy to the extreme. People that saw our robot this year at Florida regional up close may have noticed our lime-green duct tape used to "powdercoat" our claw and minibot deployment mechanism. The technological gap between some teams is a big portion of why some don't think that some robots are "student-built." When my team would spend 6 weeks on our 1960's era (I think thats the year...REALLY old is all I can say about it as a student) mill to cut out a piece that takes a laser CNC a day, the difference in manual labor is blatant.

A few years ago, some other team's mentor came and pointed to our robot and noted that some our welds looked sloppy. My mentor Dave looked over and commented that their robot's welds looked pretty nice and also asked who did the welds. It turned out that a student's parents owned a welding company that did their welds for them, which is nice, but our robot is student welded and we have never broken a weld.

The major point of this is that there is not a laser-cut (get it? hahaha) definition of "student-built" or "mentor-built."

2. The role of a mentor on a team is not something that can nor should be standardized. Our head mentor is there to teach the mechanical equipment, not to mention letting 40-50 kids use his house and personal backyard workshop to build robots. Our mentors are there to teach during the fall and watch over for safety during the build season. This year, a mentor came up to our team before alliance selection and began asking our drive coach about our robot and strategy. Our mentor said, "You're talking to the wrong person, I'm the drive coach because its a nice place to watch a match from" and directed the questions to me.

3. Finally, I'm a little confused by the student intelligence discussion. Seems besides the point when the discussion is about "mentor-built" not "you students cant do that." With CNC machines, nothing looks even mentor built, much less student built (if you have a kid with laser-eyes milling out your robot, then I'd be REALLY jealous).

Last year's codriver is going to Caltech right now, this year's is accepted into Stanford and is waiting on MIT to decide, and our dictator (elections are too much of a hassle) has the best scholarship to Georgia Tech waiting for him, but is also waiting for MIT. Previously, we've had two students go to Princeton, one is at Yale, and one went to MIT (in his junior year in high school). These are all members that I know personally (I'm sure there are others that I'm unaware of) so I would beg to differ if any argument is made that a team is a powerhouse because of overly intelligent kids.

The point of all this is: to the people that don't like the powerhouse teams - be inspired by them and the technology that gets put into their robot. If nothing else, make a goal of bringing a stronger robot to competition. The U.S. was built on innovation and that's the point of FIRST, innovate and surprise them.

To all you powerhouses: If you have an extra CNC machine that our head mentor can afford the power costs for, let me know! To the point: this post shows almost no attempt to understand the teams involved. You should understand how privileged your team is resources compared to others and you may understand their feelings a little bit more.

Finally, to all the people at pit that booed and acted childishly at pit, you should know better as a part of FIRST.

[Racer26]

@Chris is me: I too have toured the 1114 shop, and was pleasantly surprised to have much the same reaction. I do know however, that much of their competition robot is outsourced to sponsors machine shops (IFI for the sheetmetal, for instance), and that they have (at least in past, if not presently) access to a closed Niagara District School Board school's gymnasium to set up a practice field in, which they don't have to tear down during build/competition season. I know they have also made this space available for local teams to use in past years.

Am I envious? Absolutely. Do I think they should be hindered or chastised for their awesomeness? Certainly not.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

@Chris is me: I too have toured the 1114 shop, and was pleasantly surprised to have much the same reaction. I do know however, that much of their competition robot is outsourced to sponsors machine shops (IFI for the sheetmetal, for instance), and that they have (at least in past, if not presently) access to a closed Niagara District School Board school's gymnasium to set up a practice field in, which they don't have to tear down during build/competition season. I know they have also made this space available for local teams to use in past years.

Am I envious? Absolutely. Do I think they should be hindered or chastised for their awesomeness? Certainly not.

But the thing is, 1114 didn't just spring up with an IFI partnership. They worked hard and diligently to get it. It took them years to get that sponsorship - their 2009 robot was their first IFI sheetmetal robot.

I believe that from 2004 onward (?) their robot was machined almost exclusively in house, using sponsors for parts like their sheetmetal 2006 ball tower. It sounds exactly like how my own team builds robots.

[tim-tim]

To be honest, I used to be a young and dumb student who thought the same thing. Then I finally had the chance my junior year of high school to compete in nationals. This is where I was proved wrong!

Boy was I ever wrong. Some the teams previously mentioned took the time to explain to me how they went about doing things, and I was impressed. Most of these "dominant" teams (and I use the word dominant lightly) are year-round teams. There is no off-season or start and stop. It is a continuous process. These students have the luxury having fantastic mentors, and yes maybe a lot more resources than us. So be it. I learned so muh that weekend in Atlanta, and I was proved wrong, and really look up to those teams now.

Thanks JVN.

[saworms]

Probably those people who Booed 1114 and Canada were probably people uneducated in the FIRST values. They may have been students that came down to get bonus points, instead of being actual team members. I feel that they, the teachers that give the students the choice of bonus, should choose the students that they feel can act appropriate throughout the event. These comments should not happen to anyone who participates in FIRST.

Team 1114, I feel someone should appologize for these people's behaviors, even though I do not know who did it I am sorry that someone did this to you and I hope you do not be bothered like this again.

Saworms

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

But the thing is, 1114 didn't just spring up with an IFI partnership. They worked hard and diligently to get it. It took them years to get that sponsorship - their 2009 robot was their first IFI sheetmetal robot.

I believe that from 2004 onward (?) their robot was machined almost exclusively in house, using sponsors for parts like their sheetmetal 2006 ball tower. It sounds exactly like how my own team builds robots.

This is correct. IFI began sponsoring our team in 2008, and only began doing sheet metal for us in 2009. Each year that IFI has done sheet metal for us, major parts of our robot have still been done in house. (Drivetrain in 2009, Hanger in 2010, Minibot deployment in 2011) If you look at our robots closely, you'll notice that there is a very homemade feel to certain parts of them. For example, this year's robot features two plastic drinking cups, a fishing pole and a chunk of wood. (Much to the chagrin of some, and to the pleasure of others)

[Racer26]

I also remember an instance in the 2009 GTR Finals, when the Head Ref made the decision to not allow 188 to play in Finals Match 2 after 188/610/1305 had upset 2056/1114/2185 in Finals Match 1, and they were about 10 seconds late returning from a timeout to repair 610's manipulator. Karthik, and a number of others were stunned to hear what sounded like nearly the entire stadium booing the decision. It was evident that people didn't like what ultimately amounted to handing the 1114/2056/2185 alliance Finals match 2 on a silver platter, but the way it was shown was downright embarrassing to the Canadian FIRST community.

Karthik was so stunned by this that he forgot to have the alliances do the traditional handshake prior to FM2.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by Karthik

This is correct. IFI began sponsoring our team in 2008, and only began doing sheet metal for us in 2009. Each year that IFI has done sheet metal for us, major parts of our robot have still been done in house. (Drivetrain in 2009, Hanger in 2010, Minibot deployment in 2011) If you look at our robots closely, you'll notice that there is a very homemade feel to certain parts of them. For example, this year's robot features two plastic drinking cups, a fishing pole and a chunk of wood. (Much to the chagrin of some, and to the pleasure of others)

Don't take this the wrong way, y'all -- but one of the things that some of the folks on my team and myself liked about your 2008 robot was that it was kinda ugly.

You don't get to see that stuff on a webcast and so teams fill in the blanks on their own, but the reality is that no team is building robots that we can't manage to make ourselves. We all have different capabilities and it'd definitely be implement certain mechanisms with more/different/better resources, but there are always ways around the roadblocks.

[XaulZan11]

I can understand how people/teams 'hate' the elite teams. Me and my team's rookie year was 2006. At both our events that year were on the 8th and 7th alliance, and got absolutely killed by 111 in the first round of each event. We had no chance at coming close to beating 111, who went on to win each event. After the events and seeing a polished, professional robot, a huge team with a ton adult mentors on the field accepting their awards and Raul yelling at the drive team, it was easy to say "yeah, 111 has Motorola build their robot for them". I really felt Wildstang cheated. Thankfully, is not really my personality to boo or do things similar to what happened at Pittsburgh. Obviously, I don't feel that way now (even after they absolutely dominated Wisconsin again this year). I wish I knew when and what made my opinion change.

Walking back to the pit after Saturday's award ceremony this weekend a student from a team I respect and 'gets it', said something like Wildstang should feel ashamed and didn't deserve to win because no students touched their robot. I said something like, "nah, I'm not sure I agree with that, I'm sure their students put a ton of effort in." After reading this thread, I wish I would have taken a stronger stance and encouraged him to talk to their students about their robot. I do agree its up to the experienced teams, mentors and students to squash any of these negative thoughts and actions.


Teams like 111 and 1114 are what makes FIRST special. They provide an unthinkable amount of inspiration. Without 111, 71, 70 and 494, who were the best teams at my first events, I'm not sure I would be as involved in FIRST as I am right now. They continue to inspire and motivate 1732 to improve. After watching 111 this weekend, we are determined to improve to get to their level. Thanks 111, 1114 and all the other elite teams that inspire and push teams to improve.

[GGCO]

This is really unfortunate and I hope the mentors on all teams give their team a serious talk about this kind of behavior.

From my own experiences with COMETS Robotics, I have had to face similar criticism from teams. Last year was our rookie year, but we had three members (myself included) that were veteran FRC members from another team.

So when we had an incredible amount of success, we made it to Einstein, there were many teams who told us (sometimes to our faces) that we were a "rookie" team. I put it in quotes because they were implying that our team didn't deserve the amount of awards we received.

So I can understand the terrible behavior that 1114 experienced, and it's my hope that this kind of attitude ceases to exist in the FRC.

[Cory]

There's not much that hasn't been said here already but I've noticed one prominent theme in this thread-an outpouring of support for 1114 specifically because people know that mentors don't build their robot, that it is a partnership of students and adults.

Who cares who builds the robot? If 1114 or any other team wanted to have their robot be built entirely by adults that would be no better or worse than a team that has theirs built entirely by students, or anywhere else in the spectrum. Who are we to judge how or why a team does what they do? If it inspires their kids then it should be good enough for anyone.

[Dave Scheck]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

Walking back to the pit after Saturday's award ceremony this weekend a student from a team I respect and 'gets it', said something like Wildstang should feel ashamed and didn't deserve to win because no students touched their robot. I said something like, "nah, I'm not sure I agree with that, I'm sure their students put a ton of effort in."[/quote After reading this thread, I wish I would have taken a stronger stance and encouraged him to talk to their students about their robot. I do agree its up to the experienced teams, mentors and students to squash any of these negative thoughts and actions.

Thanks for sticking up for us in whatever capacity you did. It's good to know that members of teams that we respect have our backs.

It's unfortunate that the student you referred to has those feelings. I wish that he/she would have stopped by our pit after match 56. In that match, there was a screw in the supershifter that started to work its way out. This caused the robot to get stuck in low gear for most of the match. After the match, we ran a few tests and Raul assessed the problem based on what he saw and told the students to fix it. Within 20-30 minutes, the students on their own had the drive module off, had the gearbox disassembled, fixed, put back together, and reinstalled on the robot.

I should be over it after 10 years in this program, but it really bothers me when people think that our students aren't involved. It's extremely disrespectful and dangerous to jump to conclusions about what students do on the team as well as what they get out of it.

If anyone reading this has this view or knows somebody that does, send them to our pits at Midwest or Championship. I'd love for them to spend some time with our students to see what they know.