Banebots RS-775 Case Short

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by OZ_341

I think in light of this continuing issue that FIRST needs to relax the 2011 build rules and allow the replacement of Banebot motors with legal FP motors and/or CIM motors.

There's no problem another CIM motor wouldn't fix!

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by Don Wright

Yes, we zapped, and the issue returned...zapped again...return...repeat...

I'd be interested to see what one of these motors looks like inside, now....

[OZ_341]

Originally Posted by squirrel

I'd be interested to see what one of these motors looks like inside, now....

.....and what is happening to the overall power output every time it gets zapped?
I just wanted to be clear about something here. I am not trying to cause heartache for Banebots or FIRST. In fact I am not even looking to get my money back. But I do think a relaxation of the rules is an important step towards solving this issue for teams that have spent months preparing for a singular moment on the field of play.

When you buy a product it should be safe and it should work within a reasonable range of its intended purpose. These motors do not fulfill even this most fundamental requirement. Yet many of our designs require that we use them. Students in an educational competition should not be in a position where they have to put large amounts of current across the casing of a motor just to get their designs to work.

Question:
Is there any critical mass out there for asking FIRST to relax the rules to keep everyone safe and successful or am I alone on this?
Just wondering, how everyone feels?

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by OZ_341

Question:
Is there any critical mass out there for asking FIRST to relax the rules to keep everyone safe and successful or am I alone on this?
Just wondering, how everyone feels?

You have my support. We've dealt with this issue greatly already, and we haven't even competed yet. Unfortunately, for teams that have competed already with the same issues, it would be unfair to unburden other teams who have yet to compete.

-Brando

[Cory]

I'll preface this by saying we haven't had a problem with any of our 775's.

I don't see a rule change as the answer. How is it fair to let teams start using up to 4 more CIM's/ FP's on their robot to replace 775's halfway through the competition season?

Banebots should be testing these motors as they receive them from the manufacturer and not sending out any that are bad.

[OZ_341]

Originally Posted by Cory

....Banebots should be testing these motors as they receive them from the manufacturer and not sending out any that are bad.

I agree, yet they did send them out to all teams. All we are saying is that they didn't test them and there is no plan to make good on this problem. Yet, we are being forced to use them. We are not looking for a tactical advantage. I just think all teams should be allowed to use the next closest legal items in terms of power curves and weight.

[Swampdude]

We had 1 out of 3 that were originally bad. Then after using 2 for the arm with a p60 256:1 gearbox that failed we had to switch to a CIM on the arm and put the 2 775's in our drive gearboxes with cimulators. As soon as we got in a pushing match they started giving the magic smoke smell and a jaguar burnt out. I suspect the problem wasn't originally detected but is now shorting on both of them. I asked around at the Florida regional and it seemed like everyone was having some sort of banebot troubles, be it gearboxes or case shorts. There are so many FP motors left over from years past, it seems a no brainer to let us use 2 FP's and 5 cim's like in the past. I'm all for that even though we've competed and couldn't launch a minibot one match due to a 775 short.

[Jared Russell]

I could see getting up in arms about allowing teams to replace RS-775s with CIMs, but allowing for a direct swap of RS-775s for Fisher Price motors (2010 or 2011) would actually decrease the total mechanical power available to teams - I'd be all for it.

[Dad1279]

Originally Posted by Cory

.....
Banebots should be testing these motors as they receive them from the manufacturer and not sending out any that are bad.

I agree, but actually have received an email from Banebots stating:
"The manufacturer does not view this as a defect."

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by Dad1279

I agree, but actually have received an email from Banebots stating:
"The manufacturer does not view this as a defect."

In the short run, BaneBots needs to do what they can to resolve the issue, irrespective of the manufacturer's opinion. In the long run, they need to reconsider whether they want to do business with a manufacturer that apparently doesn't know the first thing about quality control.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Jared341

I could see getting up in arms about allowing teams to replace RS-775s with CIMs, but allowing for a direct swap of RS-775s for Fisher Price motors (2010 or 2011) would actually decrease the total mechanical power available to teams - I'd be all for it.

I believe the 2011 FP actually has a higher peak power than the 775-18 at 12 volts.

[Dad1279]

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

In the short run, BaneBots needs to do what they can to resolve the issue, irrespective of the manufacturer's opinion. In the long run, they need to reconsider whether they want to do business with a manufacturer that apparently doesn't know the first thing about quality control.

In the long run, I hope FIRST will reconsider doing business with a vendor that does not offer teams service, nor warranty refunds/repairs/replacements for DOA products. My last correspondence with Banebots has gone unanswered since Feb 17th.

[OZ_341]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I believe the 2011 FP actually has a higher peak power than the 775-18 at 12 volts.

The important feature to compare is that an FP motor does not cause you to conduct current across your robot frame. In the safety conscious culture of FIRST, I would think that this is a pretty nice feature and a fair engineering trade-off.
Also any differences in the power curve would be offset by the fact that any team could make the change. A small price to pay for safety and reliability.
I think at this point, I am going to stop yacking on Delphi and just take up this issue directly with FIRST. Thanks for everyone's feedback.

[MCahoon]

Note that AndyMark is showing the FP motors are out of stock with expected 8-10 days before shipment could begin.

Even if FIRST would agree immediately to substituting the FP for the 775, it would still be Week 5 before many teams could have a replacement (since not everyone has 2 or 3 FP from previous years).

Important issue to address, but not a solution IMO.

[Tristan Lall]

It just occurred to me that in referring to these as BaneBots' own motors, we're probably perpetuating higher expectations for them. After all, nobody is decrying AndyMark's lead time, because we know they're just a reseller for other companies' motors. By contrast, as far as we know, BaneBots is the one-stop shop for BaneBots motors.

A little more openness about the supply chain (starting with the name of the manufacturer) would probably go a long way toward clarifying which issues are of BaneBots' own making, and which are attributable to the supplier.

Nevertheless, that doesn't exactly excuse not communicating with customers.