Banebots RS-775 Case Short

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Oz,
The simplest way is to start a thread on the Q&A by asking the question. I know what the answer is going to be but it should get people to start thinking about the issue. Please keep in mind that any manufacturer could have a bad run of product. I am not defending Banebot but just knowing the problems can occur allows the students to learn real world issues with components.

[OZ_341]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Oz,
The simplest way is to start a thread on the Q&A by asking the question. I know what the answer is going to be but it should get people to start thinking about the issue. Please keep in mind that any manufacturer could have a bad run of product. I am not defending Banebot but just knowing the problems can occur allows the students to learn real world issues with components.

I understand what you are saying, but Banebots should be standing behind their bad product run and FIRST should be forcing them to do so.
In the real world I would just go to another motor manufacturer and never use Banebots again, but I am not allowed to do that. So the real world analogy does not completely apply here.
A nice lesson for the students would be showing them how a company should stand behind their products. If Banebots does not want to be an example company for students, then they should not work with students, period.

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by MCahoon

Note that AndyMark is showing the FP motors are out of stock with expected 8-10 days before shipment could begin.

That 8-10 day delay was posted about 10 days ago. We have not received the new shipment from F-P yet, but we will within a day. Once these are here, then we will open up orders. I really don't like opening up order for items like this until we see the motors here.

So, my best guess is that they will be available again at AndyMark by Wednesday, March 16.

And... yes, in a general sense, we are looking at this entire issue and seeking ways to improve things for the FIRST community next year. I don't want to go into specifics publicly, but I am very open for suggestions regarding what to do for 2012.

Andy B.

[JVN]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

And... yes, in a general sense, we are looking at this entire issue and seeking ways to improve things for the FIRST community next year. I don't want to go into specifics publicly, but I am very open for suggestions regarding what to do for 2012.

Andy B.

Unlimited CIMs. The weight of the motor plus the limited power of the battery provides a good enough tradeoff that teams won't get an "unfair" advantage from using lots of them. That motor is also easy to use, and there are lots of wonderful options available for inexperienced teams.

Veterans will be happy.
Rookies will be happy.
JVN will be happy.

No more garbage motors in the interest of "variety."

-John

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by JVN

Unlimited CIMs. The weight of the motor plus the limited power of the battery provides a good enough tradeoff that teams won't get an "unfair" advantage from using lots of them. That motor is also easy to use, and there are lots of wonderful options available for inexperienced teams.

Veterans will be happy.
Rookies will be happy.
JVN will be happy.

No more garbage motors in the interest of "variety."

-John

Building on this, FIRST seemed to attempt the "pick a motor that suits you" system this year with the Banebots motors. It's a good idea, but the quality of some of the motors left much to be desired.

The CIMs have proven to be as close to indestructible one could hope for in a motor for FRC. With the way drivetrains have progressed you pretty much have to use them in the DT to stay competitive. Even 1 additional CIM goes a long long way.

-Brando

[billbo911]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

Building on this, FIRST seemed to attempt the "pick a motor that suits you" system this year with the Banebots motors. It's a good idea, but the choices of motors left much to be desired.

-Brando

Your point is well stated, but I think the wording might not quite be accurate.
I believe a better choice might be:

Building on this, FIRST seemed to attempt the "pick a motor that suits you" system this year with the Banebots motors. It's a good idea, but the quality of some of the motors left much to be desired.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by billbo911

Your point is well stated, but I think the wording might not quite be accurate.
I believe a better choice might be:

Yes, thank you, I've edited my original post.

-Brando

[JesseK]

I'd support unlimited CIMs if Andy Baker promised not to sell a 4-CIM gearbox except through 'custom' orders that wouldn't be FIRST-legal anyways. :shudder:

This thread is making me a bit nervous. Our primary lift motor (the one that's bagged) is the FP-673 through an AM Planetary + CIMple box, yet our backup motors (the practice bot + spares) are all RS-775's through BB's gearbox and a CIMple box. Unless we tip, we've found it's not possible to stall/burn out our FP lift motor under normal operations (acme rod = higher torque, less speed, natural braking) so I don't forsee this becoming an issue. Yet perhaps we'll get a spare FP motor tomorrow.

[Don Wright]

Unless we tip, we've found it's not possible to stall our lift under normal operations

I hate to say it, but stalling/not stalling the motor has nothing to do with it.

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by Don Wright

I hate to say it, but stalling/not stalling the motor has nothing to do with it.

I meant that for the FP-673 motor that's currently installed on the bagged production bot. Updated it to clarify.

[EricVanWyk]

Do chassis-faulted motors have different output power? Has anyone stuck them on a dyno?

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by JVN

Unlimited CIMs. The weight of the motor plus the limited power of the battery provides a good enough tradeoff that teams won't get an "unfair" advantage from using lots of them. That motor is also easy to use, and there are lots of wonderful options available for inexperienced teams.

Veterans will be happy.
Rookies will be happy.
JVN will be happy.

No more garbage motors in the interest of "variety."

-John

I love this, with one caveat: I don't love all future roller claws I make weighing at least 6 pounds.

Unlimited CIMs and unlimited Globes, or unlimited CIMs and unlimited Windows would be better.

[MrForbes]

Unlimited CIMS, unlimited window motors. I like that. We have a dozen Denso window motors, never used them until this year.

[EricVanWyk]

Originally Posted by JVN

Unlimited CIMs. The weight of the motor plus the limited power of the battery provides a good enough tradeoff that teams won't get an "unfair" advantage from using lots of them. That motor is also easy to use, and there are lots of wonderful options available for inexperienced teams.

Veterans will be happy.
Rookies will be happy.
JVN will be happy.

No more garbage motors in the interest of "variety."

-John

I can't wait to see two 8-CIM drive trains in a pushing match.

The only issue I have from an electrical point of view is trying to explain to rookies that unlimited CIMs doesn't mean that an unlimited number of CIMs will necessarily work.

[Bob Steele]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

That 8-10 day delay was posted about 10 days ago. We have not received the new shipment from F-P yet, but we will within a day. Once these are here, then we will open up orders. I really don't like opening up order for items like this until we see the motors here.

So, my best guess is that they will be available again at AndyMark by Wednesday, March 16.

And... yes, in a general sense, we are looking at this entire issue and seeking ways to improve things for the FIRST community next year. I don't want to go into specifics publicly, but I am very open for suggestions regarding what to do for 2012.

Andy B.

My vote would be for a limit of 12 motors.
Teams could choose between CIM,FP, Window with a maximum of 4 each.

with a variety of options already available commercially and team designed...FP motors can be used in most situations and gearboxes designed for CIMS... ( The same way that the banebots motors could...)

But honestly I see no advantage to Window motors... but for variety... fine..

I honestly don't think that all CIMS is a good idea... they are too heavy for many extended applications like a roller claw or something where the motor has to be moved... so the FP is a good substitute.. being lighter.

I like the banebot gearboxes so I think we shouldn't really toss Banebot out for one of their motors...

Our team is using the 550 motor... it seems to work quite well... and it could be substituted into most applications that teams were using the 575's for... we have never seen the case short problem in those motors.

I have used these motors in a number of other applications in classes and they are pretty decent as long as they are supported and the load is supported...they also have the advantage of being really cheap... the form factor is exactly the same as the FP...

We thought about using the RS-775 and ended up using something we had some experience with... the 550... it ended up to work quite well for our application. (An elevator)

I concur with everyone's complaint that Banebot should be standing behind their product. If you remember though, back a few years ago... they did do that... providing new plates for the transmissions that were provided to us...at quite a cost to them as I recall... so I wouldn't write them off... completely... I would imagine that this year was nightmare to them because of their shipping delays and this 775 issue.

They do provide a nice competitive gearbox in a number of ratios for use on our robots with either their motors or the FP.

I like having options... and I really missed having the option of 2 FP motors this year.

Just remember that if you are using the 775 and want to substitute the FP ... that you can substitute the 550 that this is perfectly legal and not too far off the power curve...
You can do that right NOW... without any special action by the GDC

We have never seen this case short problem with a 550...Has anyone else out there?

Good luck on the field...