Violations not being Penalized Properly at Competition

[KyleLT1987]

I'm sure it has happened to many teams out there and I am curious as to what different teams plan on doing to correct the situation for future regionals.

I just came across our video on youtube from the finals, match 2, at the New Jersey Regional.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC02YOAgS2g

At 22 seconds, during autonomous, you see team 2016 (great team by the way and if we had to lose to someone, I'm glad it was them) cross the centerline of the field and contact robots within the opposing teams (our teams) alliance. A red flag is waived to signal an infraction yet at the end of the match no penalties were ever reported. As per rule G32, a red card should have been issued

<G32>

Neither ROBOTS, HOSTBOTS, nor MINIBOTS may break the planes of the vertically projected borders of the opponent‟s ZONES, including a GAME PIECE in their POSSESSION. Momentary incursions by a POSSESSED GAME PIECE will not be penalized if they do not make contact with anything in the ZONE. Violation: PENALTY. G61 does not apply to this rule, however strategies aimed at taking advantage of this exception will result in a PENALTY plus a YELLOW CARD. If a ROBOT enters the opponent's ZONE and does not make immediate effort to leave OR if it contacts another ROBOT (or GAME PIECE in its POSSESSION) also in the ZONE, then the intruding TEAM will receive a RED CARD.


Has anyone else had this sort of issue dealing with penalities being called and not reported at the end of the match?

[Vikesrock]

The appropriate response is to send a pre-college member of the drive team into the "Question box" after the match to speak with the head referee. From watching the video I agree that it appears that a red card should have been issued to 2016 but without knowing we reasoning of the referees it is difficult to comment on the situation further.

[Ken Streeter]

Originally Posted by KyleLT1987

At 22 seconds, during autonomous, you see team 2016 (great team by the way and if we had to lose to someone, I'm glad it was them) cross the centerline of the field and contact robots within the opposing teams (our teams) alliance. A red flag is waived to signal an infraction yet at the end of the match no penalties were ever reported. As per rule G32, a red card should have been issued.

As Vikesrock mentions, the proper way to raise such issues to the referees is by going to the "question box" immediately after a field reset is signaled. (Or, in this case, immediately after the score is announced.) The specific applicable rule is T05.

However, in the specific case shown in the video above, it's hard for me to tell whether G32 applies, as even though the offending robot crosses the center line in autonomous, it's hard to tell if it enters the opponent's ZONE. (It's definitely very close -- if only the view wasn't blocked!)

In any case, G11 is clearly violated, which would not be a RED CARD violation but only a PENALTY. If the offending robot also crossed into the blue ZONE, a RED CARD would seem to be the appropriate finding.

[Matt704]

Wow he clearly waved the flag. Did y'all ask for justification? If so, what did they say?

[Sunshine]

I'm guessing that the following rule was broken and only this rule.

<G11> ROBOTS may not break the plane of the CENTER LINE. Violation: PENALTY

Other rules mentioned are for teleop or end game.

[EricH]

It's quite possible that the ref simply forgot to note the penalty (which would be for crossing the centerline, not necessarily for zone/lane violations). That sort of thing has happened before.

If you see the ref call a penalty that isn't counted, park someone in the question box. It can change the outcome of the match.

Back in 2005, 330 was hit in a loading zone (think a much smaller version of the lane), which at the time was 3 10-point penalties. That particular penalty was nicknamed the "Kiss of Death" because many match scores didn't get up that high. The refs called it (flags were thrown to the ground, as that was the penalty marker design back then). But when the scores came up, we lost and our opponents had no penalties. Someone on the drive team headed over to the refs (there wasn't a question box at that time) to find out why. The response, IIRC, was "Oops, we forgot" and the score was promptly changed to reflect the penalty. We won the match because of that penalty.

[Chris is me]

Zone penalties aren't counted in autonomous, to my knowledge.

[Jared Russell]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Zone penalties aren't counted in autonomous, to my knowledge.

Shouldn't they be?

Some teams with 2-tube auto modes will surely be on Einstein this year. Assuming one partner scores the last tube, why would I not have my other partner launch towards the opposing zone and cause as much havoc as possible? I would gladly take a 3-point penalty if it meant keeping one or more ubertubes off of the opponent's rack.

[Lowfategg]

Chris, I believe this is the rule you are referring to.

"<G33> ....(Exception: if a ROBOT should break the planes of the vertically projected borders of the opponent’s LANES during the AUTONOMOUS PERIOD, it will have a "grace period" to remedy the situation at the beginning of the TELEOPERATED PERIOD; the grace period will be either 5 seconds or until an opponent ROBOT enters the LANE – whichever comes first.)"

Kyle, sorry about that wayward auto mode, it was completely unintentional. Since our claw failed to deploy it did not trigger our bottom magnetic switch to tell the robot to stop once the arm is fully retracted. We are putting in a fail safe for DC.

I believe the flag was for the center line infraction.

[Colin P]

Crossing the centerline was called at both of my districts. It was just a penalty, but it was always called.

Question box

[The Lucas]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Zone penalties aren't counted in autonomous, to my knowledge.

G33 for Lane Incursion starts with "During the TELEOPERATED PERIOD" so there are no Lane Incursion penalties during Auton. G32 for Zone Incursion is not similarly restricted to Teleop, so it should apply during Auton.

[GGCO]

The #1 ruling they need to change or clarify is the lane incursion ones. If your robot just barely crosses into the lane and no other robot is there or you haven't caused any damage, then your team shouldn't be penalized.

I believe something along those lines was added in one of the updates, but it's just too subjective and refs aren't consistently enforcing it.

[BrendanB]

Whenever I noticed something like that this year I went to a ref first. In one of our matches a team pushed us away from the tower in the last 10 secs as we were deploying. They received both a penalty for zone violation and a yellow card. Or a red card I couldn't remember.

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by GGCO

The #1 ruling they need to change or clarify is the lane incursion ones. If your robot just barely crosses into the lane and no other robot is there or you haven't caused any damage, then your team shouldn't be penalized.

I believe something along those lines was added in one of the updates, but it's just too subjective and refs aren't consistently enforcing it.

Nope the momentary incursion update was strictly for the game piece not the robot.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by GGCO

The #1 ruling they need to change or clarify is the lane incursion ones. If your robot just barely crosses into the lane and no other robot is there or you haven't caused any damage, then your team shouldn't be penalized.

I believe something along those lines was added in one of the updates, but it's just too subjective and refs aren't consistently enforcing it.

If you can find that update, all refs would be interested in learning it.

Were you thinking of the updates that excused momentary intrusion of a GAME PIECE into a ZONE or LANE?