Minibot Falling off pole - Penalty?

[Tom Bottiglieri]

At bayou, the refs are calling a penalty for any instance where a minibot falls off the pole. Is this happening at other regionals? I've seen many a minibot fall off at other regionals, sans penalty.

Thanks

[Chris]

Wasn't a penalty at WPI or BAE.

Our mini-bot went flying off the pole every-time.

[GaryVoshol]

You might ask them what rule they are using to call that penalty.

[DonRotolo]

If it falls off before the end buzzer I can think perhaps

<G42> ROBOTS, MINIBOTS, or HOSTBOTS may not intentionally detach parts or leave MECHANISMS on the FIELD (with the exception of appropriate DEPLOYMENT of the MINIBOT). Violation: PENALTY for each incident and potential RED CARD if an intentionally detached COMPONENT or MECHANISM impedes MATCH play.

BUT Only if combined with

<G46> MINIBOTS may only be used to climb the TOWER. Violation: YELLOW CARD

The theory here is that a minibot on the carpet is not being used to climb the tower, but that's specious at best.

Alternatively, if the minibot falls far enough from the HOSTBOT

<G40> ROBOTS or HOSTBOTS may not exceed PLAYING CONFIGURATION at any time. Violation: PENALTY for unintentional, momentary violations. RED CARD for intentional or continuous violations.

This was never called at NJ

[jblay]

I would just have your team captain or coach walk up to the head referee in the morning and say you were looking through the rules and could not find this penalty and ask that he point it out to you. I would also bring a copy of the game manual with me. I have done this plenty of times at various events and the refs are always very nice about it and most of the time I am wrong and they are right but in this case it looks like the ref might be in the wrong.

[PAR_WIG1350]

There is a blue box under <T14> that allows for invoking <G26> ultimately resulting in a penalty, thus, a referee can indeed give penalties for falling minibots, AND this is entirely at the discretion of the head referee

[sanddrag]

Hrrmm. There might be some design adjustment in order. It seems to me that even for the magnet stick-on ones, some thin polycarb could solve the falling off issue, without causing any friction, or deployment issues. Just something that flexes around the pole when putting it on, and comes around the other side of it, to keep it from falling off.

[Tytus Gerrish]

That's preposterous! the minibot falling off the pole is a punishment within itself.

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by PAR_WIG1350

There is a blue box under <T14> that allows for invoking <G26> ultimately resulting in a penalty, thus, a referee can indeed give penalties for falling minibots, AND this is entirely at the discretion of the head referee

<G26> is a gameplay rule that covers safety violations. Presumably—and admittedly this isn't actually explained clearly—it would only be invoked if safety was jeopardized during gameplay.

I'm not sure why there's a blue box invoking it in this circumstance. (The blue boxes "are not part of the formal rules, and do not carry the weight of [the] rule[s]".) If it's egregiously unsafe, the referees have the option to award a <T06> or <T09> card anyway, irrespective of what the blue box talks about.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by PAR_WIG1350

There is a blue box under <T14> ...

No need to shout at us.

<T14> is in the Field Reset section of the manual. Reading of the rule itself will show that the rule was meant to make removal of the Minibot safe. If it falls off itself during the match, there is no safety issue.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Hrrmm. There might be some design adjustment in order. It seems to me that even for the magnet stick-on ones, some thin polycarb could solve the falling off issue, without causing any friction, or deployment issues. Just something that flexes around the pole when putting it on, and comes around the other side of it, to keep it from falling off.

We implemented exactly this solution on ours. It works rather well but there's still instances where it can fall off after coming back down.


I watched many webcasts through weeks 1 and 2 and saw many minibots fall off the pole, especially after they had triggered the target. Its frustrating to constantly have to modify our design based on different interpretations of the rules. Obviously it would be nice if the minibot stayed on the pole every single time, but the way I read the rules I don't think its require to.

-Brando

[Ken Streeter]

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

At bayou, the refs are calling a penalty for any instance where a minibot falls off the pole. Is this happening at other regionals? I've seen many a minibot fall off at other regionals, sans penalty

To me, this seems like a good situation in which to apply the guidance contained in yesterday's Bills' Blog concerning mis-communication at FRC Events:

...If you encounter a miss-communication at any FRC events in the future, please turn to the 2011 Manual first, then with rule in hand, discuss the problem with the event volunteer. If you cannot come to an agreement, go to the Event Manager or FTA both of whom can contact FIRST HQ if they can’t resolve the issue themselves.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Update: Our team spoke to the head ref this morning about the rule and he informed us they would not be calling this as a penalty afterall. Thanks everyone for the input.

[PAR_WIG1350]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

No need to shout at us.

<T14> is in the Field Reset section of the manual. Reading of the rule itself will show that the rule was meant to make removal of the Minibot safe. If it falls off itself during the match, there is no safety issue.

1) I wasn't shouting, I was emphasizing the important stuff. When I shout I use exclamation points.

2) Even when <T14> isn't a factor, <G26> can still act alone.

[Ken Streeter]

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

Update: Our team spoke to the head ref this morning about the rule and he informed us they would not be calling this as a penalty afterall. Thanks everyone for the input.

Glad to hear that the issue was resolved!

I also noticed (at least as well as could be seen from the webcast) that it seemed that 125 was successfully deploying the minibot yesterday without it falling off the pole! (Or, if it was falling off the pole, it was doing so after crash-landing on the base at the bottom.)