Playing a different game on Einstein

[Jared Russell]

Originally Posted by Brian Ha

There are a couple really cool looking wall bots out there but man they are gonna be a pain in the arse

A thought that has been nagging me over the first two weeks of competition:

There will be three robots on the World Champion alliance. 98% of FIRST seems to have designed with tube scoring in mind. Yet every single piece of evidence I have seen and experienced with this game shows that three tube scorers on one alliance is a crowd - you invariably get in each others' way as you try to fill up the rack. And there are likely going to be dozens of robots that will be able to reliably score at least 2 logos by themselves by the time St. Louis rolls around (I have been to two Regionals in person and witnessed perhaps 6-8 teams capable of this already).

Will the winning alliance's third robot simply be another scorer? Will it be a scorer pressed into defense/tube shuttling duty? Or will it be a purpose-built third robot (think 148 from 2008)?

[RMiller]

Originally Posted by Jared341

... And there are likely going to be dozens of robots that will be able to reliably score at least 2 logos by themselves by the time St. Louis rolls around (I have been to two Regionals in person and witnessed perhaps 6-8 teams capable of this already).
...

Out of curiosity, where were these teams getting the tubes from? How well defended were they?

[Jared Russell]

Originally Posted by RMiller

Out of curiosity, where were these teams getting the tubes from? How well defended were they?

Mostly from the floor, but a few teams (1218 in NJ and 179 in FL jump to mind) reliably scored 4+ tubes per match using nothing but human loading.

I have seen plenty of (attempts at) defense, but I have not yet seen a strong scorer get truly shut down. The human loaders tend to be fast and agile enough to squeeze by defense into the zone, while the floor loaders with good human players seldom need to leave the zone to find a tube.

[RMiller]

Originally Posted by Jared341

Mostly from the floor, but a few teams (1218 in NJ and 179 in FL jump to mind) reliably scored 4+ tubes per match using nothing but human loading.

I have seen plenty of (attempts at) defense, but I have not yet seen a strong scorer get truly shut down. The human loaders tend to be fast and agile enough to squeeze by defense into the zone, while the floor loaders with good human players seldom need to leave the zone to find a tube.

Thanks for the information. The better teams I saw at Lake Superior were all floor loading. A couple were able to get two logos themselves when they had tubes available (even as far as their towers) and had minimal defense.

[Greg Leighton]

Originally Posted by Jared341

Yet every single piece of evidence I have seen and experienced with this game shows that three tube scorers on one alliance is a crowd - you invariably get in each others' way as you try to fill up the rack.

Will the winning alliance's third robot simply be another scorer? Will it be a scorer pressed into defense/tube shuttling duty? Or will it be a purpose-built third robot (think 148 from 2008)?

I've been thinking the same thing, I imagine there might be a couple alliances that can figure out the three offensive bot scenario but here is my list of what I think your third alliance partner will consist of (in order of usefulness).

1. Wallbot
2. Feeder bot (aka robot with great pickup and driving ability)
3. Another strong offensive bot
4. An elite minibot robot (this would allow for one of your top two bots to score tubes during the race portion of the match)

Now you very well may see a combination of those things but thats what I perdict.

[Katie_UPS]

Originally Posted by Greg Leighton

4. An elite minibot robot (this would allow for one of your top two bots to score tubes during the race portion of the match)

I really hope alliance captains don't rely on only two minibot-ers this year. It reminds me of '08 when the "ideal" alliance only needed two hurdlers and one lapper. Which was great, until one hurdler broke... and then your alliance loses in semi's even though it was practically guaranteed that you'd get to go to Atlanta.

Not that I was effected by this personally at all.


<3 you 1625, 1730

[Greg Leighton]

Originally Posted by Katie_UPS

I really hope alliance captains don't rely on only two minibot-ers this year. It reminds me of '08 when the "ideal" alliance only needed two hurdlers and one lapper. Which was great, until one hurdler broke... and then your alliance loses in semi's even though it was practically guaranteed that you'd get to go to Atlanta.

Not that I was effected by this personally at all.


<3 you 1625, 1730

I imagine on Einstein all robots on the field will have a minibot, atleast that was my assumption when I posted that comment. The thought I was trying to get across was that when picking for eliminations you may see an alliance persuaded to pick a team based on having an especially good minibot, one that stood out from the rest. I imagine the first two bots will have minibots that work just maybe not as good an elite minibot that the third pick might have.

[MaxMax161]

Hmm unless there was an amazing defense bot that didn't have a minibot and the other two alliance partners had really reliable minibots, which could happen, I think all robots on Einstein alliances are going to have a minibots.

What do you guys think is the best way to counter an alliance with really strong minibots and good hanging (about 3 logos a match) if you're a team with good minibots and really strong hanging (4+ logos a match), and vise versa?

[Lil' Lavery]

None of the alliances on Einstein will have a "minibot specialist." Guaranteed.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

None of the alliances on Einstein will have a "minibot specialist." Guaranteed.

Have we even seen a robot that would fall into the category of "Minibot Specialist"?

I wouldn't doubt that a team may make it to Einstein while filling a role where their primary objective is to win the minibot race, but they'd HAVE to do something else for the first minute and 40 seconds.

[IKE]

Originally Posted by thefro526

Have we even seen a robot that would fall into the category of "Minibot Specialist"?
.

I have seen a couple bots that were able to drive around and deploying a minibot was essentially their only "scoring" capability. It actually did quite well at its event.

In general, this bot either played defense or pushed tube for the first 1 minute or so.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by thefro526

Have we even seen a robot that would fall into the category of "Minibot Specialist"?

I wouldn't doubt that a team may make it to Einstein while filling a role where their primary objective is to win the minibot race, but they'd HAVE to do something else for the first minute and 40 seconds.

I'm not talking about a team that doesn't do anything for the first 1:40. Any alliance that relies on a single robot to win minibot races for them match after match won't reach Einstein.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by IKE

I have seen a couple bots that were able to drive around and deploying a minibot was essentially their only "scoring" capability. It actually did quite well at its event.

In general, this bot either played defense or pushed tube for the first 1 minute or so.

Ike, do you thing this robot would fair well at the Championship?

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I'm not talking about a team that doesn't do anything for the first 1:40. Any alliance that relies on a single robot to win minibot races for them match after match won't reach Einstein.

The only way I could see that happening is if said minibot had some sort of "game breaking" strategy where it could afford to sit at the tower all match. (And after 469 last year, I'm not ruling anything out.)

[MaxMax161]

For the sake of argument lets assume that at least two robots probably three that reach finals in St. Louis will be able to minibot. Do you think their going to camp the pole at 25s-20s, try and rush in at 15s from the other side of the field or hang that one last tube and go for not a first place minibot and deploy after 10s?

[Jared Russell]

I agree that a "minibot specialist" is unlikely, simply because if your minibot is *that* much better than your tube scorers', you're going to be off the board early.

However, I do believe that all three bots are likely to at least have a minibot, lest someone breaks down, gets blocked, or fails to deploy.

In one Florida practice match, our alliance had 3 minibots. One robot went to the left tower and deployed without problems. The second robot went to the right tower, but their bot failed to start climbing. We went over to the right tower and deployed our minibot above the one sitting on the base and climbed successfully.