Another Culture Change

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

If you still think that student run teams are better there isn't much more I can do to tell you how wrong you are other than say that FIRST has had this issue for at LEAST the 8 yrs I've been in FRC and done nothing about it. Give it up, every team is run differently, stop saying your way is better than any other way.

I apologize to Andrew for picking on his post to make a point, and his is only one of zillions on CD that has said essentially the same thing in the last few years, and that is "FIRST (... has) done nothing about it. Give it up..."

For an organization that was founded on the idea that the dominant cultural belief that athletics is valuable and engineering is "nerdy" and "uncool," the FIRST community tends to react badly to criticism of its methods and norms. Why shouldn't people argue that student run teams are better tools for accomplishing the aims of the organization? Why enforce the same static cultural rigidity that gets established in virtually any society, when the whole founding idea of FIRST was to be radical -- to envision a different sort of world? When the CD community dogpiles on a dissenter, that's what they are doing -- rushing to the ramparts to drive off barbarians who don't accept the dominant view of the world. And that's just as bad as what FIRSTers believe the mainstream culture is doing.

I could go on and give examples from political history of revolutionaries and radicals who more-or-less instantly became reactionaries and conservatives once they took power, but I'm pretty sure you all get that without me pointing it out. I encourage you all not to turn from FIRST radicals into complacent majorities who favor dogma over change and unity over finding the best possible ideas. If you can't defend your beliefs without simply shouting down others who disagree, perhaps your beliefs don't have much value in the first place.

How does this tie into the thread? Simply bashing the organizations that are the most successful in FRC they way it exists today is stupid. If you believe that the system has produced some methods that produce dysfunctional results, it is incumbent upon you to come up with rational arguments showing that those methods aren't the best possible, and, if you can, suggest changes to make the program better. Those who defend the status quo ante are then obligated to present their argument. If you avoid this discussion because, "FIRST has always done it this way and won't ever change," that's bad for everyone, both the defenders of the current methods and those who seek change. "Because I said so" doesn't advance anything, doesn't improve learning, and certainly isn't going to "change the culture."

If you believe that the folks who run FIRST won't ever change and don't listen to thoughtful criticism, it might be best to just not talk about things any more. There does come a time where you have to stop talking and take action. (I'm not talking armed rebellion or revolution here. Just to be sure you don't misunderstand.) That action might be to find another similar organization that shares your values, or you might want to start your own program. I'm not making the argument that FIRST is like this, but if you believe that nothing you say is ever listened to you should start to listen to that "give it up" advice . If it hurts when you hit yourself in the head, eventually you might want to drop the hammer and find something else to do.

And don't call people names just because they are better at optimizing a solution under the given constraints. It's foolish and dishonest.

[JesseK]

It's frustrating to know that one's best isn't good enough. Lashing out is the common human thing to do. THAT is what has to change as a culture; FIRST seems to attempt change in this aspect of culture by nurturing failure of the mind in learning environment. Yet this frustration in failure applies to failed relationships, failed projects, failed products, failed companies, and practically everything else; FIRST is no different. It takes maturity to push through the failure, and it takes resilience to be on the receiving end of it. If we call out every knucklehead who bashed some other team publicly or privately, we could be here all day. The important thing is that 1114 has students and mentors who are resilient and (mostly) humble; that is the model we can all emulate.

Keep the message loud and clear; eventually it'll stick.

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

And then there's moos. I had no idea a large crowd could moo so loud and so quickly.

It was one of those Holy Cow moments.

Jane

I just had to explain to my coworkers why I was laughing so hard . Awesome post.

[Jimmy Nichols]

Wow! We attended Pittsburgh and were defeated in the Semis by Simbotics. I congratulated them, they outscored us. We were pitted accross from them. We chatted the whole weekend. I got to know a couple of the mentors more as we tried to adapt their minibot on to our machine. We spent hours to no avail and even after breaking one of their minibots, they were still awesome and willing to help us. I can honestly say I did not witness any of these actions and if I had I would have said something to them.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by JesseK

I just had to explain to my coworkers why I was laughing so hard . Awesome post.

What's funny about that is I didn't even think about it being funny when I wrote it. A couple of years ago, I was down on the field during the awards ceremonies at IRI. The crowd was having a really great time celebrating the teams who were being given awards. When the Holy Cows came through the line, all of a sudden the place was filled with moos. It threw me off because they sounded like boos and I couldn't believe anyone would ever do that at one of the robotics competitions. As one of the mentors came through, I asked him if their team moos. He burst out laughing and said, "Yes, we moo." It was a great moment but a very surprising one.

Jane

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

What's funny about that is I didn't even think about it being funny when I wrote it. A couple of years ago, I was down on the field during the awards ceremonies at IRI. The crowd was having a really great time celebrating the teams who were being given awards. When the Holy Cows came through the line, all of a sudden the place was filled with moos. It threw me off because they sounded like boos and I couldn't believe anyone would ever do that at one of the robotics competitions. As one of the mentors came through, I asked him if their team moos. He burst out laughing and said, "Yes, we moo." It was a great moment but a very surprising one.

Jane

Last year my team started yelling "boom" when we were doing well. It sounded like we were booing ourselves!

[Mr. Van]

Originally Posted by Madison

In NO other circumstance would the victim of an attack be expected to explain to others why the attack on them was unjust.

I agree with you, Madison. I do not suggest that "powerhouse teams" defend themselves. I suggest that "powerhouse teams" do take the effort to break the impressions that others have of them.

Powerhouse teams that lawyer the rules, argue with refs and challenge inspectors will be seen as trying to "cheat" - even if they are right. Teams that have 4 students and 5 mentors in the pit on Thursday, working furiously and then have 40 students parading down to accept an award on Friday will be seen as "mentor built" - even if they are not. These teams that have drive coaches who do not listen to other drive coaches from their alliance partners will be seen as arrogant - even if they have the correct strategy. Teams that only socialize with other "winning" teams will seem elitist - even if they are simply building on long-standing friendships.

This is what I meant by these teams being on a pedestal. They are celebrities. They are the rock stars. And they have the best opportunity to make a difference on this issue. Continue to act graciously and professionally and invite the "haters" into your fold.

Eric is correct - fight fire with water. This is about who you are, not about who they are. It may not be "right", and indeed, you shouldn't "have to", but I agree with Eric - it is probably the fastest and most effective way to directly change the culture. Far better than rules or awards and the like.

Get them to mutter "they can't possibly be teenagers... they are so gracious and so professional!"

-Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox

[LeelandS]

I don't understand how this kind of behavior can still exist in FIRST. After 20 years of enforcing the ideals of GP, I would have thought this kind of behavior would be done.

1114 is a great team. I've had the honor of working with them in past years, as well as meeting one of their mentors, Karthik, however briefly it was. No one deserves to be treated the way they were. That kind of behavior in FiRST is simply not tolerated. And John is right, I hope any teams reading these posts or his blog feel horrible about their behavior. Any way you look at it, every student and mentor on that team dedicated 6+ weeks of their lives to do what we do here. They deserve the same respect shown to other teams, volunteers, referees or judges.

[Egg 3141592654]

Unacceptable... people that heckle and boo for other's achievements realize that they can't move any further to fairly compete. They do not need to publicly announce that. Team 1114 has my sympathy, no team deserves marring to their hard work.

[JVN]

Originally Posted by JVN

Hello Everyone,
I've been thinking about this for a long time. I heard some horrible, interesting stories from the Pittsburgh regional this past weekend which helped solidify my thoughts.

I managed to put these thoughts into words here:
http://blog.iamjvn.com/2011/03/anoth...re-change.html

I hope you'll take a minute to read, reflect, and hopefully join me in helping to shift OUR culture.

-John

Week 3 has come and gone. So what did YOU do this week to shift the culture within FIRST?

-John

[MrForbes]

I had our drive team get scouting data from the top seeded team, just before alliance selection.

[Katie_UPS]

Originally Posted by JVN

Week 3 has come and gone. So what did YOU do this week to shift the culture within FIRST?

-John

We had a team meeting discussing the article. We made sure all team members understand that teams work for their excellence and that we should never belittle what they do or how they do it.

Its helps that this year has been a prime example for students how hard work can pay off.

[Basel A]

Originally Posted by JVN

Week 3 has come and gone. So what did YOU do this week to shift the culture within FIRST?

-John

I shared your blog post with many (100+ FIRSTers on FB, 40+ FIRSTers on Twitter).

I shifted the culture of one team member who seemed convinced a certain team does nothing for themselves (as in, not even their mentors).

I argued, to no avail, with one graduated FIRSTer, who was convinced a team that has won a CCA (and I'm not talking pre-2000; a fairly recent HoF member) doesn't know, or has at least lost sight of, the ideals of FIRST. Despite evidence to the contrary. Not sure what to do there.

I cheered for the most deserving team when they won, because they earned it.

I took some sweet pictures of sweet robots, but I guess that's unrelated. But for the record, some teams are just plain inspiring.



Edit: Reporting has no effect. When those who act inappropriately, mentors or students or whoever else, aren't corrected, action needs to be taken, and that is the suggestion of this thread. Most mentors share the right message with students, but it is the vocal minority that are the source of these issues.

[Steve_Alaniz]

PLEASE

End this thread.

It went from reporting inappropriate actions to labeling people "Haters". "Haters?" You mean the people we mentor? The young men and women in their TEENS we are trying to inspire? There are many inappropriate actions that are successfully handled by mentors and these incidents are never brought up again. What happened to 1114 is regrettable and indefensible but to label those teams, students, (mentors) who boo'd as "Haters" is over the pale.
The powerhouse teams are NOT victims. The people who rival them are NOT Haters and if there is that much sensitivity, then frankly there needs to be introspection. It's NOT about the robots... It's NOT about winning... it's about inspiration. And there is no greater inspiration than a mentor instructing their team..or even another team, on the appropriate way to handle their disappointment. It's a bitter pill to swallow...simply because it is...someone with greater resources bested you... did a better job... or simply lucked out... but you applaud the winners because it is right.

Steve

[santosh]

Originally Posted by Steve_Alaniz

PLEASE

End this thread.

It went from reporting inappropriate actions to labeling people "Haters". "Haters?" You mean the people we mentor? The young men and women in their TEENS we are trying to inspire? There are many inappropriate actions that are successfully handled by mentors and these incidents are never brought up again. What happened to 1114 is regrettable and indefensible but to label those teams, students, (mentors) who boo'd as "Haters" is over the pale.
The powerhouse teams are NOT victims. The people who rival them are NOT Haters and if there is that much sensitivity, then frankly there needs to be introspection. It's NOT about the robots... It's NOT about winning... it's about inspiration. And there is no greater inspiration than a mentor instructing their team..or even another team, on the appropriate way to handle their disappointment. It's a bitter pill to swallow...simply because it is...someone with greater resources bested you... did a better job... or simply lucked out... but you applaud the winners because it is right.

Steve

I cosign this almost fully.
At first, we hear about in first such as how one day it will be a first student to end world poverty, provide clean water to the world, and cure cancer. This implies that lift is not fair and that it is our job to help make it fair by helping others.

You know what is not fair, having mentors design and build robots while kids get "inspired."
Although some call it fair, most of society would call it unfair. Not to compare something as trivial as how well your team's robot does to world wide issues, but you do as well as you do in first many times because of simply what school you go to.

I don't know why people want to silence public discourse on the matter. Yeah, what happened to simbotics sucks and should never happen, but is it that hard to believe?
I'll be the first person to admit that I dislike the idea of mentors fully designing and cading robots and having those mentors/ a shop put it together. I instantly shot down the idea of having that happen to the team that I started and mentor. I couldn't/still can't see how students could have fun and take pride in their robot if they weren't the ones putting in the work for build design and debugging.

I simply cannot see how a student can be inspired when they havent made extensive contributions to their machine. I think inspiration comes from the students seeing what they built and seeing it run and run well, Not seeing an engineer built robot dominate a bunch of other teams. At that point it isn't a high school robotics competition.

Forgive me if you disagree with me and forgive me if thus doesn't make too much sense for I have been up late catching up on school work.

[penguinfrk]

This year was the first year our team's made it to the championships. When we won on the field, our arm operator, a freshman, excitedly told the coach, driver, and analyst (all upperclassmen, myself included) "I'm so excited I'll be so close to the field when we get crushed by the powerhouse teams. I can't wait for St. Louis!"

We had showed the videos of 118, 148, and 254 to the team for inspiration the two weeks before the competition. It felt great knowing that, even if not our team in particular, FIRST was inspiring students.