Notifying teams of yellow/red cards

[Madison]

We received two yellow cards this weekend -- and consequently a red card -- after some trouble with our bumper mounts pulling out.

In the first instance, the yellow card was announced alongside the match score, but no official directly informed any member of my drive team about the infraction.

In the second instance, neither the yellow card nor subsequent red card was announced to spectators and, again, no official informed any member of my team.

Is this par for the course? We asked the head referee how teams are meant to correct behavior when they're not being informed of these infractions and were told, more or less, that we "should know better."

I'm curious if this is typical interaction between teams and the officials or if others are more diligent about informing teams of penalties/cards. I'd like to see some standard in place that the referees must follow with respect to informing teams of all penalties and cards.

[JesseK]

Last year we were yellow-carded in a qual match in DC because we left a piece of our robot on the field. Of course we intended to shear those rivets and have the wheel break off -- it was obviously designed to do just that exactly once a competition. We weren't notified about it. We found out because we had a yellow background on our number in a later match. The head ref had similar sentiments.

I'm really glad the 'intentionally' has been re-added to the 'leave parts behind' rule.

[Alex Cormier]

Also, the other interesting part is after a match. Teams are required to get the robots off the field and to get to the next spot. Which is usually the pit. So by the time, the scores and cards are announced, the drive team is already too far away.


I noticed in FLR and Pitt that the head ref's would walk over to the driver station of which team would get the card.

[Ken Streeter]

Originally Posted by Madison

We received two yellow cards this weekend -- and consequently a red card -- after some trouble with our bumper mounts pulling out.

Is this par for the course? We asked the head referee how teams are meant to correct behavior when they're not being informed of these infractions and were told, more or less, that we "should know better."

The procedures for referees notifying teams of yellow and red cards is explicitly called out in rules T06, T08, and T11 in section 5.5.4 of the manual. (See below.)

T07 also points out how teams should be reminded of a prior yellow card.

The referees should be following that section of the rules, in the same way that teams are expected to follow the rules.

5.5.4 Yellow and Red Card Rules

<T06> The Head Referee may assign a YELLOW CARD as a warning of egregious ROBOT or TEAM member behavior at the ARENA. A YELLOW CARD will be indicated by the Head Referee standing in front of the TEAM’S PLAYER STATION and holding a yellow card in the air after the completion of the MATCH.

<T07> Once a TEAM receives a YELLOW CARD, its team number will be colored yellow on the audience screen at the beginning of all subsequent MATCHES as a reminder to the TEAM, the referees, and the audience that they have been issued a YELLOW CARD.

<T08> A TEAM will be issued a RED CARD (disqualification) in any subsequent MATCH that they receive an additional YELLOW CARD. This will occur after the completion of the MATCH. A RED CARD will be indicated by the Head Referee standing in front of the TEAM’S PLAYER STATION and holding a yellow card and red card in the air simultaneously. The TEAM will still carry their YELLOW CARD into subsequent matches.

<T11> If a TEAM is disqualified during a MATCH for a reason other than receiving an additional YELLOW CARD, they will receive a RED CARD. This will occur after the completion of a MATCH and will be indicated by the Head Referee standing in front of the TEAM’S PLAYER STATION and holding a red card in the air.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by Ken Streeter

The procedures for referees notifying teams of yellow and red cards is explicitly called out in rules T06, T08, and T11 in section 5.5.4 of the manual. (See below.)

T07 also points out how teams should be reminded of a prior yellow card.

The referees should be following that section of the rules, in the same way that teams are expected to follow the rules.

Thanks for this -- it never once happened. Teams are rushed to get on and off the field to the extent that we're usually long gone before scores are ever announced.

It's frustrating that teams are meant to know the rules inside and out -- and I'll admit to missing this one -- but the refs frequently get any number of calls wrong and there is no recourse.

[Jon Stratis]

I agree with Madison on this... there *should* be more communication of penalties, red, and yellow cards to the teams. In the past, we've never been able to tell for sure who got penalties - you just know the alliance got X number of penalties. In Duluth a few weeks ago, however, they announced the team and action for each of the penalties at the end of the match, and yellow/red cards were clearly announced and indicated after the match. Certainly worthwhile... if you were in the stands to hear it. I doubt much of that information got back to the drive teams, however - unless other members of their team went down to the pits to yell at them for doing something wrong.

The Ref's in Duluth did a great job keeping track of all that stuff. It could be a huge benefit to the teams to receive some sort of "after-action report" detailing what happened in the match - copy the final scoring screen they put on jumbotron, and add a list of penalties/yellow cards/red cards for each team, or even just specifically for their own team. Baring that (after all, it is more work that would have to be done by already busy volunteers), have a specially designated area for team coaches to hang out after their match and see the final results - the coach can listen to the announcer, see the final score, and see if the ref gives any yellow/red cards. It would also provide a great location for refs to approach teams after a match to provide more personalized feedback ("I noticed you do this, while I didn't call you on it this time, we're going to be more strict tomorrow" type of feedback... apparently pretty common at Duluth).

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Alex Cormier

Also, the other interesting part is after a match. Teams are required to get the robots off the field and to get to the next spot. Which is usually the pit. So by the time, the scores and cards are announced, the drive team is already too far away.


I noticed in FLR and Pitt that the head ref's would walk over to the driver station of which team would get the card.

Really? It's been two years since I was in the box, but we definitely knew if we had been penalized before our drive team was out of range. From memory, we knew if we had been penalized before the robot was off the field, and we knew the scores before we made it past the curtain. Perhaps this is venue specific?

We have been approached in the past about almost-calls too. "Hey, I noticed you almost committed a <G9001>, you should probably watch out for that in the future."

[George A.]

I know that I always announce the team and rule infraction for each match I call, as have most announcers for the regionals I attend.

The only caveat to this is that in the elims we are instructed to only give the alliance color in hopes to stem "blaming" one team for getting the alliances knocked out

[2789_DrT]

Originally Posted by George A.

I know that I always announce the team and rule infraction for each match I call, as have most announcers for the regionals I attend.

The only caveat to this is that in the elims we are instructed to only give the alliance color in hopes to stem "blaming" one team for getting the alliances knocked out

Hmmm.. interesting. At the Chesapeake Regional, the announcer did communicate which teams were responsible for red and yellow cards in the elimination rounds - including two red cards that caused a semifinal rematch and another red card that cost the red alliance a final match that would have sent that alliance on to St. Louis. The match was replayed and the blue alliance won.

In the past, we have had a disconnect between our scout and drive teams so at this Regional we made it our goal to close that gap so that our drive team could better decisions. Our team had a scouting system that included 1 scout for the red alliance, 1 scout for the blue alliance, 1 scout to record minibot scores & penalties (that was me), and 2 people for data entry. We uploaded all our data to a google site (https://sites.google.com/site/2011chesapeake/) so that our drive team could make informed decisions and also provide early assistance to robots we were allied with in future matches that seemed to be in need of repairs. To be fair, we made the website public so that other teams could view our data too.

Because I was recording penalties, I could see how a drive team could miss some really key penalty calls. The referees conferred on the penalties for all matches so there was a lag between the penalty announcements and the end of matches. However, I know there must have been some kind of earlier communication between the refs and our drive team because the one time our team got carded - our drive team was able to ask the refs for clarification on the penalty.

[IndySam]

At Wisconsin the head ref personally informed every team of a red or yellow card which was a nice touch.

At Purdue the head ref stood in front of the drivers station with the card.

[Andrew Y.]

at peachtree...the head ref would hold up the red card and explain to the spectators exactly why the red card was given. She did this throughout qualifications and eliminations.

One thing she tried to do as fast as possible was to approach the driver station of the red carded team and show them they received the red card...but there was NO ONE in the drivers station most of the time due to the rush of getting robots in and out.

all in all i think there were no real communication problems at peachtree

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

Really? It's been two years since I was in the box, but we definitely knew if we had been penalized before our drive team was out of range. From memory, we knew if we had been penalized before the robot was off the field, and we knew the scores before we made it past the curtain. Perhaps this is venue specific?

We have been approached in the past about almost-calls too. "Hey, I noticed you almost committed a <G9001>, you should probably watch out for that in the future."

Yeah I'm thinking it is venue rules. At GSR this year by the time we got off the field the scores were announced. In some rare instances we moved to the right side/exit of the field and waited their for our scores (once for 5 minutes) without any problem.

The referees are doing their jobs of waving the cards the times I have seen them give them at GSR, WPI, and webcasts.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Andrew Y.

at peachtree...the head ref would hold up the red card and explain to the spectators exactly why the red card was given. She did this throughout qualifications and eliminations.

One thing she tried to do as fast as possible was to approach the driver station of the red carded team and show them they received the red card...but there was NO ONE in the drivers station most of the time due to the rush of getting robots in and out.

all in all i think there were no real communication problems at peachtree

Cosigned--sort of. I was able to see the quarterfinals red card our opponents received rather clearly as we unloaded our robot...but I was already looking towards the blue alliance station (and thus the big screen, given the venue layout). Putting the head ref on the microphone was definitely more informative than sticking a red card in the air (which could happen in any of six places on the field).

Given the significance of a yellow or red card, perhaps a separate "Hold the drivers a minute" signal needs to be created to ensure that the drivers don't walk off before the announcement is put out (even while allowing them to leave their driver station to start robot unloading to keep the schedule). I'm not sure what the best signal would be--police lights on the scoring table? Another field sound, like the trumpet and foghorn? Big orange cone at midfield with Aidan Browne giving you the evil eye?--but I think an official signal that the head ref is about to lay the smackdown may help everyone be aware.

[RyanN]

We were yellow carded this weekend because of our 5th person on the floor during finals was not allowed to be on the floor. They said on the PA system that each team going into the finals was allowed one extra person to help with the robot. We sent out our normal mentor we always send out, and we were yellow carded because we were only allowed to have 4 people.

No worries though, it did not change the outcome of the competition. We were just not sure why that was against the rules, and still don't. It does hurt our reputation though. We were penalized 12 points for it though.

Maybe someone who saw or was judging the Bayou Regional finals could clarify why were were yellow carded so we don't do it again?

[big1boom]

Originally Posted by IndySam

At Wisconsin the head ref personally informed every team of a red or yellow card which was a nice touch.

The Wisconsin head ref was really good about notifying the drive team of any warnings/yellow/red cards. He would send one of the field reset crew to tell a member of drive team to wait in the ref box, and then immediately following the match he would come over and tell that person what they were doing wrong, or how they are engaging in risky behavior.