Situatuions after attending Alamo regional

[RoboCat2005]

Being around first for 10 years now, and first year as a coach/mentor I am not one to start rumors or issues about the volunteers. But I wanted to put out to everyone that attended the 2011 Alamo Regional, and then attended another regional after, example the Lone Star Regional. the team I coach/mentor had issues with getting through inspection in Houston, both with the host bot but specifically the mini bot, all things that were approved in San Antonio but right away knocked off in Houston, causing us to take extra time to fix all the issues, that we thought were ok based on passing an inspection at a previous regional.

Did anyone else experience this as well?

[Andrew Schuetze]

Please be specific when making such posts as generalities are hard to clarify. I can tell you from coaching teams since 2001 and attending multiple events for many of those years, that the set of inspectors at one event may interpret rules and mechanisms in one fashion while at another the same rule or mechanism may be seen in a different light. This is the reality of having tens of thousands of volunteers all working for the same organization. FIRST has developed training materials and certification exams to help provide a consistent experience for teams across events but as with many things in life, there is some human subjectivity that creates variances. I don't know it to be the case here, but in the past, FRC has changed what is allowable from one week to the next.

I can tell you that at both events, the folks who performed robot inspections were long time FRC coaches and mentors so even though Alamo was a rookie event, it had a veteran crew in critical areas such as inspection, field crew, judge advisor and the like, even down to the master of ceremonies and game announcer.

[Kevin Sevcik]

I know of a specific issue regarding bumpers single piece bumpers with mitered/butted plywood corners that bit a few teams coming out of Alamo. I think this was primarily due to a lack of clarity from the GDC on that specific issue, which allowed for differing interpretations at different regionals. I hold myself partially to blame for this specific one, as I pointedly asked the GDC about such corners and didn't press them for a crystal clear answer on it.

I'd like to hear in detail what other issues you ran into, especially with the minibot. I'd like to know if this was a genuine misunderstanding or if there are any vague or fuzzy areas in the rules that are can be cleared up before the next regionals. Plus, it gives me an idea of problem areas in rules that I should try to focus my questioning on next year. (Yes, I often search through the rules for just such vague spots and ask questions accordingly. Helps to cut down on things like this in the future.)

[davidalln]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

I know of a specific issue regarding bumpers single piece bumpers with mitered/butted plywood corners that bit a few teams coming out of Alamo. I think this was primarily due to a lack of clarity from the GDC on that specific issue, which allowed for differing interpretations at different regionals. I hold myself partially to blame for this specific one, as I pointedly asked the GDC about such corners and didn't press them for a crystal clear answer on it.

We were the team with this issue. There are always discrepancies between inspectors. I have doubts that we will make it through North Carolina without raising one red flag despite having passed two inspections, but that's the way things go.

In fact, I can't remember going through an inspection once without having the inspector point something out to fix before we got our sticker.

[DonRotolo]

We have been attending two regionals for several years now, and I cannot remember not having to change SOMEthing at the second regional that was perfectly acceptable at the first one.

[jee7s]

FRC 2789 just wrapped up the Chesapeake Regional in Baltimore. We were the 4th or 5th team through inspection, no slip ups or surprises. We did find it curious that our bumpers weighed a pound less and our robot was three pounds under our last weigh at Alamo. That's no reason to be upset, I suppose.

From experience, I can say that not all inspectors are equal. For example, Alamo just wanted the digital copy of the BOM, where at Chesapeake they wanted a hard copy as well. The LRI there was pretty explicit about that in pre-event e-mails.

One of my previous bosses was the LRI at NYC. I know he's an electrical stickler and fails on any exposed wire, likes to see solid electrical connections on the motors, always checks for chassis isolation, and watches for entanglements. Is some of that beyond the rules? Maybe, but it's not against the rules either.

Like Andrew said, if there's a specific example let's hear it, so we minimize the aforementioned rumors.

[dez250]

If it can be classified as a safety hazard it is not beyond the inspectors right to ask you to fix it. Personally when I inspected Championship in the past, I used my expertise in the electrical side to go more in depth in robots other inspectors wanted a second answer for.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Catlin,
I would be interested to know what you found disturbing. No names please. Please PM me so that I can add it to my list of things to work on for next year.

Please be advised that as hard as we try, every inspector will not catch everything, every time. When you do come to a questionable ruling by an inspector, you do have the ability to ask for the Lead Robot Inspector to become involved. If there is some confusion on a ruling or an interpretation, then he can check with the Head Ref, FTA, myself, or Bill Miller as needed.

There is a reason that we inspect at every event, including Champs. Our inspectors are learning just like you. by Champs we expect to have the best available to you. And as you have experienced, teams do show up at Champs with things that do not pass inspection.

As for the BOM, the rules require you to submit it electronically, but it must be available to the inspector during inspections. You can do that by displaying the BOM in your pit on a laptop, the Classmate or via hard copy. We prefer a hard copy to the Classmate for obvious reasons. There are two reasons the BOM is needed. One is to satisfy Section 4.3.4. The other is so that First can examine what teams are using on the robot. If enough people are using the same item, First Engineering starts to think of how to include it in the KOP. This also may give them an idea of what items may be region specific. the reason you are required to use the First template is because they can extract the needed data from the electronic copy.

[waialua359]

If you study the rules and can cite them to support your rationale, you should have no problems.
at NYC in week 2, we almost didnt pass inspection for 2 reasons.
1. Our robot could extend upward past 84". Not footprint, but height-wise.
My question to them was, "How the heck do we score on the top peg which is almost 10 feet?"
2. We had an electronic BOM. They didnt have a computer for some reason on Friday (day 1), and said we had to print it out and turn in a hard copy.
My question to them was, "Where am I going to print it out?" I'm flew in from HI and didnt bring a printer along.

You just never know!

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Glenn,
The rule is 84" right cylinder not a sphere. the cylinder has no vertical dimension specified.
You could have asked to display your BOM on a borrowed laptop for the inspection process and then transferred the electronic copy once they got the Inspection computer running.

[waialua359]

Al,
I was just joking in light of the situation that occurred.
Coming from the lead inspector, I was pretty shocked he didn't interpret the rule correctly. They were initially not going to pass us for that and the BOM situation when we were the ones who followed the rules.

Glenn

[2789_DrT]

Originally Posted by jee7s

FRC 2789 just wrapped up the Chesapeake Regional in Baltimore. We were the 4th or 5th team through inspection, no slip ups or surprises. We did find it curious that our bumpers weighed a pound less and our robot was three pounds under our last weigh at Alamo. That's no reason to be upset, I suppose.

Wow. This is consistent with our surprise at finding that Baltimore SPS weighed in our crate at 262 lb as opposed to the 500 lb that FedEx claimed weeks before. This is more evidence that Athena kept herself occupied between the Regionals by working out inside her crate.