2011 Legal Batteries?

[fox46]

Well I've searched the Q&A and CD but have been unable to find an answer to my question. Q&A has not responded yet so I figured I would ask on CD as well. We recently set out to purchase some spare batteries after finding out nearly all of ours were well past their performance lifespan. After finding a local vendor, we gave them a call and asked for four "EnerSys NP18-12B" batteries. They said it would be no problem and a short time later our sponsor drove out and picked them up. After checking them out, they are labelled as "PowerSonic" PS-12180" http://www.powersonic.com/images/pow...10_June_22.pdf

The vendor insists that they are identical to the EnerSys NP18-12B KOP batteries and cites the datasheet as proof. I know in previous years they have been ruthless about making sure teams are running the exact KOP batteries. I have checked the inspection checklist, rules etc and am faily sure they will not permit these but I am looking for some other opinions to back up my gut feeling before demanding they give us our money back. Will they allow rebranded batteries provided we supply them with the appropriate datasheets showing they are identical to the EnerSys and MK? Nearly every place we call wants to sell us their own brand of "identical to NP18-12B" batteries. Do we send them back and demand a refund for not delivering the product we requested or are they indeed legal for use provided we back them up with the appropriate datasheets?

Furthermore, I have found another local company which has in stock "EnerSys NP18-12FR" This vendor has told us that they are made by EnerSys, have identical performance to the -B versions but the only difference is that these have a grey fire retardant (-FR) case. (Just like the MKs I assume) Do you guys think that these would be allowed?

Thanks

[RyanN]

It doesn't matter if they're nearly identical or not... the rules only allow the following:

<R34> The only legal source of electrical energy for the ROBOT/HOSTBOT during the competition is one MK ES17-12 12VDC non-spillable lead acid battery, OR one EnerSys NP 18-12 battery, as provided in the 2011 KOP. Batteries integral to and part of a COTS computing device are also permitted (i.e. laptop batteries), provided they’re only used to power the COTS computing device.

[Taylor]

The rules don't specify -B or -FR; since it stops before then I'd think either would be acceptable.
I'd still check with an inspector, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a little bit of difference between inspectors and/or events.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

R34 is the definition of legal batteries. The suffix defines the terminal configuration of the battery. You must use the one that has the terminals that are the same as the KOP battery. R34 does not allow equivalents, sorry.

[fox46]

Thanks guys, this should be enough ammunition to get the vendor to refund our money. Al: could you just confirm that by the definition of R34 and Taylor's proposition, the Enersys NP18-12FR batteries with the fire retardant case are indeed legal? I will be finding out tomorrow if we can get the original KOP batteries but if not, I was hoping to have a plan B available and get the FR version that they have in stock.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Fox,
The NP18-12B is the KOP battery. The B indicates bolt fastened terminals. Only the GDC can answer on the FR, flame retardant case. Personally, I would allow it but I have been over ruled before. There is no indication that the FR weighs more.

[Jimmy Nichols]

Fox,

Andymark sells FRC legal batteries, 2 for US$83

https://www.andymark.com/ProductDeta...Code=am%2D0844

[fox46]

Well I went ahead and bought the FR rated batteries. Q&A has not made any new posts since the 24th and I was tired of waiting in case they took two weeks to come in. Alas they arrived the next day! The part number on them is actually NP18-12BFR - there is indeed a B in there denoting the bolted terminals. They look identical to the KOP batteries- same color, same label, made by Enersys, Genesis line, same red markings but have FR added to the part number and "Fire Retardant" written below it. Here's to hoping they're kosher and if not we still have our two KOP batteries.

AndyMark is out of stock and apparently there have been issues shipping the batteries accross the border. Plus we got these for $60 each and didnt have to pay for shipping.

[Joe Ross]

Unfortunately, 2 weeks too late, the GDC answered that using the FR batteries are illegal. http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=17428

[fox46]

Thank you GDC for your most expedient and comprehensive reply

Someone remind me why we even have a Q&A forum?

I'm going to go hit something helpless with a hammer now....

[Racer26]

I'm not so sure that that is what was meant by the Q&A answer.

Originally Posted by 2011FRC2013

Good day all. Our team has been trying to obtain some competition legal spare batteries from a local source (Greater Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada). After speaking with a local vendor we purchased what we expected to be four "Enersys NP18-12B" batteries" as ordered over the phone. When they finally came in the batteries are branded "Powersonic PS-12180" as shown here:

http://powersonic.com/images/powerso...10_June_22.pdf

This vendor maintains that these are identical to Enersys NP18-12B and that there are no differences other than the branding that would differentiate them from the KOP batteries.

Given proper documentation showing their performance characteriestics to be identical to the KOP batteries, would these or other alternatively branded batteries be legal for competition?

We have found another vendor who has Enersys NP18-12FR batteries in stock. This other vendor maintains that they are identical to the KOP batteries in performance, are made by the same manufacturer- Enersys, but are built with a fire retardant case denoted by the "FR" in the part number. Would these NP18-12FR batteries be acceptable?

Thank you.

The GDC responded with "No."

The question in the Q&A was not directly "Are the Enersys NP18-12BFR batteries legal?"

The question in the Q&A was asking about the PowerSonic or other similar batteries.

[fox46]

Well I agree with you in that I hope they were referring to the first question regarding the PowerSonics but I did indeed post two questions. The second part contained in the last paragraph was:

We have found another vendor who has Enersys NP18-12FR batteries in stock. This other vendor maintains that they are identical to the KOP batteries in performance, are made by the same manufacturer- Enersys, but are built with a fire retardant case denoted by the "FR" in the part number. Would these NP18-12FR batteries be acceptable?

This is why you don't answer two questions with a one word answer! I have had quite enough of these one-word answers by the GDC. Not only is it unprofessional but it is not helpful. I would be surprised if they even read the post through until the end.

Never the less, I have asked them to clarify their response. Particularily in reference to <R34> and the NP18-12BFR batteries. I figure I'll be returning from our competition when I get a response...

[PAR_WIG1350]

Originally Posted by fox46

Well I agree with you in that I hope they were referring to the first question regarding the PowerSonics but I did indeed post two questions. The second part contained in the last paragraph was:



This is why you don't answer two questions with a one word answer! I have had quite enough of these one-word answers by the GDC. Not only is it unprofessional but it is not helpful. I would be surprised if they even read the post through until the end.

Never the less, I have asked them to clarify their response. Particularily in reference to <R34> and the NP18-12BFR batteries. I figure I'll be returning from our competition when I get a response...

This year the GDC has become incredibly cranky with their Q&A answers. The Q&A forum is supposed to clear up ambiguity in the rules. How are ambiguous answers supposed to clear up ambiguity? does anybody remember when they used to make jokes? Those were good times. I'm also seeing too many questions that include examples for the sake of clarity being ignored and given this response:
"The purpose of this forum is to answer questions on specific rules, not to perform design reviews for legality."

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Alan,
In some defense, the GDC is answering some questions asked by many teams over and over again. If you closely read the question and answers you can easily see how some of the answers are worded so as to not lead to a discussion. Other do not approve a design when it is not possible to guess at the design issue. While I do agree that some answers could be worded better, you do have to have some sympathy for the process. This is done in phone conference when the participants can make arrangements to be available.

[fox46]

http://usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Rob...pdate%2020.pdf

I may or may not be doing a little dance right now

Note to teams purchasing additional batteries: <R34> allows for one EnerSys NP18-12; both the NP18-12B (supplied in the Kit of Parts) and the NP18-12BFR (the same battery with a fire-retardant case) are allowed.

An answer on Q&A the following day would have been nice but I'll settle for this.