Wireless in pits

[Matt Krass]

Originally Posted by tomy

I know the rules say that we cant have wireless signals in the pits but I have a question.

Can I set up a router in my pit to help my iPad remotely connect to my laptop for scouting, or no?

I know you already got your answer, but this is something that seems to be very common lately, and I wanted to call attention to it.

It's kind of frustrating to see posts in the form of "I know this is against the rules, but can I do it anyway?". It's frustrating to everyone who has to answer and tell you "no, you can't do it" and I'd bet it's frustrating to you because I don't think you meant to ask that question.

To me, it seemed more like you wanted to know if you could achieve your goal while still being in compliance of the rules, in which case you should explain what you're trying to do, which rule(s) you think you're in conflict of, ask for confirmation and for suggestions how else to solve your problem. I think that will be much more happily received around here, and it's good practice, since you'll need to use the same technique to deal with your future bosses

Just wanted to call attention to this and see if we can improve, I'm not calling you out all on your lonesome.

Matt

[Adam Richards]

Originally Posted by Matt Krass

I know you already got your answer, but this is something that seems to be very common lately, and I wanted to call attention to it.

It's kind of frustrating to see posts in the form of "I know this is against the rules, but can I do it anyway?". It's frustrating to everyone who has to answer and tell you "no, you can't do it" and I'd bet it's frustrating to you because I don't think you meant to ask that question.

To me, it seemed more like you wanted to know if you could achieve your goal while still being in compliance of the rules, in which case you should explain what you're trying to do, which rule(s) you think you're in conflict of, ask for confirmation and for suggestions how else to solve your problem. I think that will be much more happily received around here, and it's good practice, since you'll need to use the same technique to deal with your future bosses

Just wanted to call attention to this and see if we can improve, I'm not calling you out all on your lonesome.

Matt

Time to argue and then finally agree with you Matt, since that's what we do best.

The rule restricting wireless in the pits has existed since before FIRST used the 2.4GHz spectrum for robots. It existed way back in the day when we used DB15 connectors for joysticks and radios operated on 900MHz. Back when the old radios were used and wireless connections weren't a huge feature for scoring, regionals had a bit more leeway in determining minutiae, and you probably could get away with a wireless network or two.

Nowadays, rogue wireless signals wreak havoc on the field equipment, to the point several competitions this year have had to contact the school they were hosting the regional and demand they turn off all wireless internet near the competition site (IIRC, there were something on the order of 60-80 wireless networks being broadcast at the FL regional alone before we had everything turned off).

To sum it up: let the robots work, don't use wireless.

[Matt Krass]

Originally Posted by Adam Richards

Time to argue and then finally agree with you Matt, since that's what we do best.

The rule restricting wireless in the pits has existed since before FIRST used the 2.4GHz spectrum for robots. It existed way back in the day when we used DB15 connectors for joysticks and radios operated on 900MHz. Back when the old radios were used and wireless connections weren't a huge feature for scoring, regionals had a bit more leeway in determining minutiae, and you probably could get away with a wireless network or two.

Nowadays, rogue wireless signals wreak havoc on the field equipment, to the point several competitions this year have had to contact the school they were hosting the regional and demand they turn off all wireless internet near the competition site (IIRC, there were something on the order of 60-80 wireless networks being broadcast at the FL regional alone before we had everything turned off).

To sum it up: let the robots work, don't use wireless.

No disagreement here, I understand the ruling. I was just pointing out the approach of the original poster was a bit frustrating because it really seems to come across somewhere between "I didn't read the rules" and "I read the rules, can I break them?" and I honestly don't think that was the intention. I was looking to raise awareness on how this could have been better phrased so that its not a problem in the future.

Matt

[Michael Blake]

I have no problem with this rule... excluding Wi-Fi routers from the pit areas because of possible affect on robots competing on the field... what I don't understand is the technical need for this... maybe someone here can help...

If too many Wi-Fi signals interfere with the FMS, shouldn't the Wi-Fi also be disabled on individual laptops (used to program robot in the pits) and smart-phones (in the pits and viewing stands)?

The Wi-FI signal on almost all laptops/smart phones turns on automatically, the way I understand it, and is broadcasting with no termination point until you select a router to send/receive with... but, even without a router to terminate to, the laptops and smart phones are sending a Wi-Fi signal out to the ether unless you disable the Wi-Fi hardware on-board...

Can someone more knowledgeable than me clear this up? THANKS! ;-)

[tomy]

Is there a way to make my laptop brocast a signal that my iPad could pick up. Or can I set up a wireless that not 2.4 or 5.0?

Also how are people allowed to do blue tooth scouting with wiu motes if it's against the rules?

[Adam Richards]

Originally Posted by Michael Blake

I have no problem with this rule... excluding Wi-Fi routers from the pit areas because of possible affect on robots competing on the field... what I don't understand is the technical need for this... maybe someone here can help...

If too many Wi-Fi signals interfere with the FMS, shouldn't the Wi-Fi also be disabled on individual laptops (used to program robot in the pits) and smart-phones (in the pits and viewing stands)?

The Wi-FI signal on almost all laptops/smart phones turns on automatically, the way I understand it, and is broadcasting with no termination point until you select a router to send/receive with... but, even without a router to terminate to, the laptops and smart phones are sending a Wi-Fi signal out to the ether unless you disable the Wi-Fi hardware on-board...

Can someone more knowledgeable than me clear this up? THANKS! ;-)

I know at the FL regional, it was broadcast in the pits and in the stands that all wireless signals were required to be manually disabled. It took a little while, but eventually it was reduced from the 60+ down to 3 wireless ad hoc signals (probably people that had no idea their phones or laptops were configured like that).

Even though its a little more complicated than this, wireless modems were really not designed to deal with more than 11-15 different access points in an area (one per channel), or you begin to deal with connection reliability issues, low speeds, etc. Ideally, you shouldn't even set routers on consecutive channels, to reduce interference. As a result, most commercially available routers default to channels 1, 7, and 11. Keeping in mind a FTA would know better than me, the main issues I saw encountered were wireless connection issues due to signal interference and an inability to find the correct network, since the FIRST networks were dropping to the bottom of the list. They did try to override all the signals by attaching more powerful antennae to a pole directly pointing at the field, but it didn't solve many issues.

[Trent B]

Originally Posted by tomy

Is there a way to make my laptop brocast a signal that my iPad could pick up. Or can I set up a wireless that not 2.4 or 5.0?

Also how are people allowed to do blue tooth scouting with wiu motes if it's against the rules?

There is nothing against bluetooth except when you are at the field competing (to prevent extra communication with the robot/minibot/people outside of the drivers and coach).

As for broadcasting a signal your iPad could pick up, it is unlikely from the pits. Williams arena alone has 13 enterprise grade access points around it, and the coverage still has room for improvement. One access point barely provides coverage over the pits, when you factor in going through walls you have a slim chance of it working out. I will check out using their guest network tomorrow or tuesday to see if that would work for team viewer but there are no guarantees that this network will even be running because of possible interference.

[Trent B]

On the guest network neither my phone nor my laptop could attain a secure connection to the teamview server. With my laptop on the U of MN Secure network and my phone on 3G I was able to connect to it. So for this to work (provided the wireless stays up) you would have to find someone who has a U of MN account and would let you borrow it (perhaps a former team member)

[Dancin103]

The issue at hand for regionals hosted at colleges and universities this year has been the number of access points. The more there are the more trouble there is for robots connecting to the field. There were serious issues up at Finger Lakes and serious issues at the Florida regional. For both regionals, Thursday's practice matches were a mess and on hold for an upwards of 4 to 6 hours. (Florida was at least 10 to 2 or 3). Please follow the Wi-Fi rules and don't create a problem, I thank you in advance!

Cass

[RMiller]

Originally Posted by Trent B

On the guest network neither my phone nor my laptop could attain a secure connection to the teamview server. With my laptop on the U of MN Secure network and my phone on 3G I was able to connect to it. So for this to work (provided the wireless stays up) you would have to find someone who has a U of MN account and would let you borrow it (perhaps a former team member)

I wouldn't count on the U of MN wireless network staying up around Mariucci or Williams.

[Trent B]

Originally Posted by RMiller

I wouldn't count on the U of MN wireless network staying up around Mariucci or Williams.

Yep, I forgot to include it in that post but I said it in prior posts when I was going to check it out.

The past 3 years the network has stayed up so I am hoping that it doesn't cause issues again this year, or that they can at least keep it on in the pits in williams (due to the separation)