Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?

[davidthefat]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

This topic is not a topic that is cut and dried or black and white. I wish that it were and I wish that it would become so in my lifetime. At the rate we are moving, my lifetime will end and this will still be a topic of discussion that generates controversy.

Controversy can be very healthy and this is.

It's easy to be idealistic and say what's the big deal? Women have to work in the real world, they may as well get used to it by working on teams that include boys/men.

That's fine and dandy. Look at some of the winning teams' photos that are cropping up in CD and look at the website of their websites. Where are the technical women mentors on the college level teams and the corporate level teams? Where are the majority of technical mentors that are women on these teams? See any?

Look around in the engineering and science classes in your high school and in your college courses and see how the numbers break down. I've talked with corporate leaders who are well aware of the lack of women in these fields and therefore, cannot hire them - because they don't exist.

How many girls actually go through the FRC program and decide on an engineering major? How many women that had their start in these robotics programs have gone on into fields of math, science, and engineering?

I welcome posts from the women who are scientists and engineers and who read CD. Share your thoughts.

Jane

Well for one, I can say that a formal student/team captain goes to Harvey Mudd and studies Computer Science. She has started a FRC team this year. Her team won the LA Regionals as a rookie. Her younger brother goes to an all boy school and is on our team. Her father is a mentor for our team too.

[Katie_UPS]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

That's fine and dandy. Look at some of the winning teams' photos that are cropping up in CD and look at the website of their websites. Where are the technical women mentors on the college level teams and the corporate level teams? Where are the majority of technical mentors that are women on these teams? See any?

Look around in the engineering and science classes in your high school and in your college courses and see how the numbers break down. I've talked with corporate leaders who are well aware of the lack of women in these fields and therefore, cannot hire them - because they don't exist.

How many girls actually go through the FRC program and decide on an engineering major? How many women that had their start in these robotics programs have gone on into fields of math, science, and engineering?

I welcome posts from the women who are scientists and engineers and who read CD. Share your thoughts.

Jane

I'm not an engineer... yet.

My sister started high school wanting to be a Vet. She was on 1675's team her senior year, which was also their rookie year. Between FRC and another adventure she was on, she picked engineering. Now she works for Lockheed Martin with her electrical engineering degree.

I wanted to be a journalist my freshman year, four years later, I can't see myself in anything other than engineering (granted metallurgy sounds pretty cool too). I plan on studying mechanical engineering in college.

FIRST works.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

That's fine and dandy. Look at some of the winning teams' photos that are cropping up in CD and look at the team photos and mentor listings/descriptions on their websites. Where are the technical women mentors on the college level teams and the corporate level teams? Where are the majority of technical mentors that are women on these teams? See any?

Look around in the engineering and science classes in your high school and in your college courses and see how the numbers break down. I've talked with corporate leaders who are well aware of the lack of women in these fields and therefore, cannot hire them - because they don't exist.

How many girls actually go through the FRC program and decide on an engineering major? How many women that had their start in these robotics programs have gone on into fields of math, science, and engineering?

This is a very interesting point that is rarely talked about in FIRST. Take a look at this post from 6 years ago by Andy Baker:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...4&postcount=54

Andy makes a list of 43 technical mentors who have had huge impacts on the engineering evolution of FRC. Every single one of them is a male. Why is that? Where are all our female rockstar engineers? Why aren't there female Raul Olivera's or Paul Copioli's? (I know they exist, but not nearly at the proportion that they should) It's an important question I've been pondering for years, but still don't have an answer for.

[emekablue]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

This topic is not a topic that is cut and dried or black and white. I wish that it were and I wish that it would become so in my lifetime. At the rate we are moving, my lifetime will end and this will still be a topic of discussion that generates controversy.

Controversy can be very healthy and this is.

It's easy to be idealistic and say what's the big deal? Women have to work in the real world, they may as well get used to it by working on teams that include boys/men.

That's fine and dandy. Look at some of the winning teams' photos that are cropping up in CD and look at the team photos and mentor listings/descriptions on their websites. Where are the technical women mentors on the college level teams and the corporate level teams? Where are the majority of technical mentors that are women on these teams? See any?

Look around in the engineering and science classes in your high school and in your college courses and see how the numbers break down. I've talked with corporate leaders who are well aware of the lack of women in these fields and therefore, cannot hire them - because they don't exist.

How many girls actually go through the FRC program and decide on an engineering major? How many women that had their start in these robotics programs have gone on into fields of math, science, and engineering?

I welcome posts from the women who are scientists and engineers and who read CD. Share your thoughts.

Jane

Hmm. But I don't think the FIRST program is so "do or die", for lack of a better term. The experience of being on a robotics team is life-changing no doubt; I'm female and have always wanted to become a scientist to some degree and FIRST gives me first-hand experience into the world of technology every day(: But I think the view of FIRST vigorously churning out generation after generation of young thoughtful students bounding into various STEM fields is... unrealistic and not exactly the ideal goal of the program. The real problem may be the inaccessibility & lack of appeal of engineering to youth around the country.

The problems really can't be blamed upon the lack of all girl teams/mentors/ general female involvement in the FIRST community nor can one force the collaboration of all these people in order to change mindsets of girls in general. So far, I think First does what it can and does it well! As sophomore in high school knowing my locknuts, bearings, transmissions, etc. definitely stands proof!

You bring up good points, Jane!

[MamaSpoldi]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

This topic is not a topic that is cut and dried or black and white. I wish that it were and I wish that it would become so in my lifetime. At the rate we are moving, my lifetime will end and this will still be a topic of discussion that generates controversy.

Controversy can be very healthy and this is.

It's easy to be idealistic and say what's the big deal? Women have to work in the real world, they may as well get used to it by working on teams that include boys/men.

That's fine and dandy. Look at some of the winning teams' photos that are cropping up in CD and look at the team photos and mentor listings/descriptions on their websites. Where are the technical women mentors on the college level teams and the corporate level teams? Where are the majority of technical mentors that are women on these teams? See any?

Look around in the engineering and science classes in your high school and in your college courses and see how the numbers break down. I've talked with corporate leaders who are well aware of the lack of women in these fields and therefore, cannot hire them - because they don't exist.

How many girls actually go through the FRC program and decide on an engineering major? How many women that had their start in these robotics programs have gone on into fields of math, science, and engineering?

I welcome posts from the women who are scientists and engineers and who read CD. Share your thoughts.

Jane

I am a software engineer... and have been for more years than many of the readers and posters here have been alive. And I would like to say that I am in a quandry about the issue of all-girls teams.

Originally Posted by Molten

Even seeing an all-girls team do well at competition allows them to see girls do well once. Seeing girls on their team taking on leadership roles and doing technical work allows them to see girls do well for weeks. The girls are also going to learn they can do well at the cost of learning to assert themselves. In short, there are definite benefits to having some all-girls teams. It allows them to see how good they are while not getting pushed around. However, this is not an ideal solution. There should be a way of helping the girls without segregating.

Exactly! I would say that the best situation would be to have a co-ed team where everyone is equally respected and given equal opportunity in all aspects of the team, but I would be lying if I said that this can be expected to happen everywhere. I only wish this kind of activity had existed when I was in high school. I suspect that can be very empowering for girls to be on a team on their own where they are expected to step up and get it done rather than having to push their way in. But if they are heading into engineering they will need to deal with that at some point and need to be ready to stand on their own 2 feet.

Originally Posted by Karthik

Andy makes a list of 43 technical mentors who have had huge impacts on the engineering evolution of FRC. Every single one of them is a male. Why is that? Where are all our female rockstar engineers?

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

This provoked a lot of thought in my head... and also a little bit of hurt at first. I remember sitting at the Championship Panel presentation last year staring at all the men. It was frustrating and aggravating. I knew the answer to every question that was asked, and I was a female engineer. But I'm not a "Rock Star". Why? I have no idea really. I can talk gear ratios, battery capacities, power curves, PID loops, PWM wiring, networking, scouting statistics, rules & ranking points with anyone. But the odder thing was sitting there, knowing I knew all of that, yet I couldn't think of a single other female mentor that I knew that knew all the same. Every "involved" female mentor outside of my team that I could name was a team leader, a mom, a teacher... none were engineering mentors. Even sitting here now, I am dumbfounded to think of one. But I also think about nearly all my posts here on CD. Most have to do with organization, leadership, scouting, strategy, rules, etc... I don't do a lot of the tech-e talk here. And maybe thats what makes an FRC engineering rock star?

To my knowledge, I am the first and only female engineering mentor that our team has had. [I have been with the team for 5 years of the 13 we have been around.] But it is just the luck of the draw... some teams have access to female engineers and some do not. We must acknowledge that we are in somewhat limited supply. And I must say that it can be difficult being the only woman in conversations among the team mentors, but that is life... I face that same challenge every day at work.

But I relish the opportunity to encourage the girls on our team to get involved in the engineering aspects of the team... and also to be there for them as a woman to talk to and to celebrate or commiserate with them when they need that. And I also relish the opportunity to let the boys on the team see that a woman can be an engineer and that she often has knowledge, experience, and insight to offer. I think what I am trying to say here is that I don't need to be considered a "FIRST Rock-Star" to feel that I am making a real impact on the lives of both the young men and women that I mentor on our team. I know what I have done... the impacts that I have made. I am proud of that.

[On a side note, several of our male mentors have indicated that they often prefer working with the girls on the team because they listen and take direction better. ]

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

Thus I think an all girls team is a great way for girls to have exclusive access to all tasks and realize that they really CAN do it just as well as boys. The point isnt to exclude the boys or deny them opportunity, the point is to push the issue that arises when boys & girls mix. Now the real world is Co-ed, so to me FLL is the most appropriate place to do an all girls team. FRC should be a microcosm of the real world.

Originally Posted by Jaine Perotti

Some people have expressed worry that girls-only teams will not prepare girls to work in a mixed-gender environment. I disagree however -- my RoboCamp for Girlz helped the girls build a foundational level of confidence -- such that they had no worries about being pushed aside by the boys once they joined the co-ed team. The boys already had that foundational level of confidence just by virtue of their upbringing. The girls-only program merely served to level the playing field.

Kim and Jaine - I agree with this wholeheartedly! Who are we to decide what works best for any team? However, as others have stated I would be sad to hear of an all-girls team that was created simply to exclude the boys (ie. not from an all-girls organization or not having another co-ed or all-boys team in the area).

Originally Posted by Molten

Even seeing an all-girls team do well at competition allows them to see girls do well once. Seeing girls on their team taking on leadership roles and doing technical work allows them to see girls do well for weeks. The girls are also going to learn they can do well at the cost of learning to assert themselves. In short, there are definite benefits to having some all-girls teams. It allows them to see how good they are while not getting pushed around. However, this is not an ideal solution. There should be a way of helping the girls without segregating.

Originally Posted by SGS

On final note consider this. Before every match, my team is not announced as "3103 the team from Duchesne Academy" we are "3103 the GIRLS from Duchesne Academy" I am not ashamed to be a girl, but does it really matter if your team has girls, boys, or is co-ed? Aren't we all trying to achieve the same things?

Agreed! And... one thing that I see that truly upsets me is when an all-girls team receives an award and it is implied that the judges were impressed by what they did considering it was all girls. This is completely unacceptable either to give the award for that reason or to imply such when it is in fact not the case. If the girls are not held to the same standards as the boys, they are left feeling like they cannot measure up those standards - a ridiculous notion. And implying that the standard is different is as just as damaging. So I ask that people judge females in engineering not because they are girls but regardless of it.

[Rachel2177]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

How many girls actually go through the FRC program and decide on an engineering major? How many women that had their start in these robotics programs have gone on into fields of math, science, and engineering?

I welcome posts from the women who are scientists and engineers and who read CD. Share your thoughts.

Jane

Well I figured it was time to share my piece...

I was a junior in high school when my school started our FIRST robotics team, The Robettes. Up until then, I was planning on going to college for psychology. After I joined FIRST, like everyone else who is on a team, it became my life and I knew engineering was what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. You know the saying "Do what you love and you will never work a day in your life," well that is how I feel.


I did not decided go to a "regular" college, I went to an engineering and science college. So if I changed my mind about my major I would have to leave because they offer math, science, and engineering degrees. I am now a junior working toward my electrical engineering degree.

Let me just say if I wasn't a member of the Robettes AND I didn't attend an all-girls high school, I probably wouldn't have made it two semesters. None of my college classmates would let me do any work in our labs and they always dismissed what I would say. Unfortunately for them, they didn't realize that because of the Robettes I knew I was good at engineering and I knew what I was talking about and I wasn't going to let them walk all over me. It's horrible, but the girls that didn't make it just couldn't stand the way they were being treated and decided to switch to a different field completely (hey if they were getting treated like this is college, they really weren't looking forward to working in the real world).

As a freshman in college I got an internship with EchoStar. The man who hired me said he knew I haven't taken any core EE classes yet, but he was familiar with FIRST and knew I could handle it. As a sophomore in college I got a internship with John Deere. They hired me because of my previous engineering experience and my GPA. And as I type this I am currently in Atlanta doing a co-op with Johnson & Johnson. If it wasn't for FIRST getting the ball rolling none of this would be happening for me.

I am one of only 6 girls in my college's whole Electrical and Computer Engineering Department. I was the only freshmen in my class to get an internship and I was the only sophomore in my class to get over 8 internship offers and work for a huge engineering company. Junior year I got over 15 internship and co-op offers. Please don't take this as me bragging, take this as if I couldn't be involved in FIRST because single gender teams weren't allowed look at all the opportunities I would miss out from.

Sexism never goes away. And maybe I missed over it, but I didn't see any females in this thread agree that single gender teams shouldn't be allowed. Because until you are a female in a male dominated interest, you honestly don't know how hard it is for us and all we have to go through.

[purpleandplasma]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

Wait...am I understanding this right? If the team doesn't stay exclusively female students...they lose a sponsor/grant/donation?

Sounds kind of...wrong?

Now I'm curious about how 433 is actually run.

i know for a fact that women of engineering will only support an all girls team, and if a team started up for all girls, had them as a sponsor, then added guys, they would loose that sponsor... which i get, but i think it is unfair

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

2340 was started at an all girls school that closed last year and absorbed by another Catholic School that has both genders but I'm told the school is not to interfere with the team's makeup at the risk of losing a huge donation to the school if they do.

So, if I am understanding this correctly, if the school asked the team to allow males on it the SCHOOL would lose donations?

Let me just tell you that being told, "I'm sorry but they have money" sucks. I was told that by a school principal once about 15 yrs ago. I was told I was wrong not because I was but because the other group donated money to the school. Do these people have any clue the effect this has on students?

[JLenhart]

I personlly do not see an issue with an all girl FIRST Robotics team. If group of girls who share an interest and science and technology want to hang out and be on a robotics team, let them. Having girls interested is fantastic and being able to get thirty or forty girls on the team who enjoy it is great. I was impressed by the Girls Of Steel team at Pittsburgh this year. They were not afraid to get their hands dirty and built an impressive robot also. Some girls just want to hang around other girls. I`m sure these all girl teams wouldn`t say no to helping start another team that allows both genders anyway if one was started and needed help.

[YAK'ker]

well, the poll wasn't exclusively for all-girl teams...
Having been a girl scout leader and a 4-H leader, I have to argue that it's better to provide ample opportunities for kids to participate together in a positive, team-focused program that isn't focused on physical prowess. That's my answer on gender exclusiveness. But my pop, who was a civil, mechanical, and electrical engineer said "women make the best engineers" so I think making sure you have girls on the team is SUPER important!

As to being exclusive in any other way...I guess teams that are based in all-Christian schools are already that way, but as long as their bylaws don't specifically require members to be of some religious affiliation, they are OK with the philosophy of FIRST, which has no religious exclusivity implied.
Personally, I think most of our robotics programs are magnets for kids who are square pegs - those who don't necessarily do well in other school groups. I would love to see what the percentage is of our kids who have autism-spectrum disorders, for example.

[DeAnnaC]

One all-girls team that we have played before is the Robettes, from Mendota Springs, MN.

Their team is school based and they attend an all-girls Catholic school but their mentors appeared to be all male.

There is an all-boys Catholic school and all-girls Catholic school here in St. Louis, but they joined together to form one FRC team.

When the Robettes attended the St. Louis Regional, they'd wear very colorful hot pink tights and the plaid school skirts. Maybe a little distracting to the boys.. or is that part of their strategy? They always held their own against the mixed gender teams and usually went home with a trohphy of some kind.

The completion of the team stats each year for our team is interesting.. 1/2 of our team is homeschooled and many of those parents do not keep track of what 'grade' their student is in. This year we've got students from 5 different counties and 12 different schools, so it's quite the mix of students to figure out the % of low income students in your district.

On the Autism Spectrum question - by my 6 years of experience with the team, we've had 1-2 students every year that exhibit some spectrum behaviors. Does robotics draw those kind of kids in because it's ok to be a little obsessive about things that Autistic kids are good at like rules/safety or 3d animation? FIRST is different than most teams - it's ok to work on some things at your own pace, in your own way and still be part of a team, so maybe that is part of the attraction?

DeAnna

I can see that this discussion is going to get a lot of posts.

Are you talking about a team from an all-girls school? There isn't any problem with that, then.

A team from a co-ed school, though, is another matter. If there is another team at the same school that is all-male, it would still not work. (remember Plessy v. Ferguson?) I personally think they are a bad idea, because they cause tension whether or not they have a male counterpart, and because of society's view of all-male groups versus all-female groups, the practice of two teams would be condoned merely for the existence of the all-male group. Plus, there is not really any reason to split the teams.

[ATannahill]

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?

Simply put, no. F.I.R.S.T. is For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology. These teams inspire girls to pursue science and technology (I have no statistics to prove this but I am going to assume as such).

Are they (or any team that excludes based on something petty) the best at inspiring science and technology? I doubt it. A diversified team can bring more ideas and different view than one that is not.

Now to address the question in your poll. Should exclusive teams be allowed in FIRST?

IMO no. I don't care if your parents paid money to send you to an exclusive school or if mentors or sponsors feel that it is in the best interest for XYZ to happen. You WILL at some point have to work with other kinds of people. If you demand to not work with person X because they are ______, your going to be the one on the ugly end of the stick.

I have seen people talk about awards or how well a team's robot did. I find this information counterintuitive to the point that should be expressed in this thread.

[Isaac501]

Coming from a non-exclusive team where the girls are generally more enthusiastic, more creative, and more focused, I can't say it would be a bad thing. We've seen some pretty fantastic all girl teams, absolutely.

That said, I team which is on-policy female-only is not right. You have legal issues, you have ethical issues. It's a mess. The exact same if it's a male-only by policy team.

[lgaroppz]

Speaking as a member of an all-girls team (Team 433), I'm obviously going to say they're a positive thing.
Guys tend to be more controlling than girls. If we had guys on our team I don't think I would ever get to do anything in the way of power tools or heavy lifting.
Because there is a lack of testosterone on our team, the girls get a chance to use the power tools and prove that we can carry the robot too.
Sometimes I even find it hard to wrestle work away from our male mentors (though I don't blame them, it's addictive).
Point being: being female is not a handicap, and having all-girl teams around allows us to enter more easily into a typically male dominated area.