Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?

[YAK'ker]

well, the poll wasn't exclusively for all-girl teams...
Having been a girl scout leader and a 4-H leader, I have to argue that it's better to provide ample opportunities for kids to participate together in a positive, team-focused program that isn't focused on physical prowess. That's my answer on gender exclusiveness. But my pop, who was a civil, mechanical, and electrical engineer said "women make the best engineers" so I think making sure you have girls on the team is SUPER important!

As to being exclusive in any other way...I guess teams that are based in all-Christian schools are already that way, but as long as their bylaws don't specifically require members to be of some religious affiliation, they are OK with the philosophy of FIRST, which has no religious exclusivity implied.
Personally, I think most of our robotics programs are magnets for kids who are square pegs - those who don't necessarily do well in other school groups. I would love to see what the percentage is of our kids who have autism-spectrum disorders, for example.

[RoboMom]

Originally Posted by Karthik

This is a very interesting point that is rarely talked about in FIRST. Take a look at this post from 6 years ago by Andy Baker:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...4&postcount=54

Andy makes a list of 43 technical mentors who have had huge impacts on the engineering evolution of FRC. Every single one of them is a male. Why is that? Where are all our female rockstar engineers? Why aren't there female Raul Olivera's or Paul Copioli's? (I know they exist, but not nearly at the proportion that they should) It's an important question I've been pondering for years, but still don't have an answer for.

I have no idea what a "female rockstar engineer" looks like, but it appears there have been many women who have won WFFA in the last 6 years. Maybe someone can update Andy's list.

I have worked with some women engineers locally who are terrific role models.

They more often are quietly working with teams, going about the business of mentoring in a way that matches what the team needs.

I have also had the pleasure of working with women engineers in the field of "engineering education" including some real rocket scientists.

FRC does not tell teams how they should run their team. So I am a little baffled by all the opinions here. I will try to read over the posts again to see what I am missing. For example, I just read a book about a FRC team where only seniors are allowed on the team...

[treffk]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

I do have to wonder what the reaction would be if the roles were reversed, what would have happened if the OP had asked if all male teams should be allowed? Or if teams were allowed to discriminate against students who have learning disabilities or who don't speak English?

At the GKC regional this year there was an all-male team. It was a all male military school. I'm sure there are many more all-male teams in situations like that too.

Although, I do support single gender teams especially within Girl Scouts because they are focusing on introducing the girls into technology. There are single gender schools that also have teams. Do you think they should combine with another single gender teams of the opposite sex?

[Grim Tuesday]

Our team was proud this year to recruit 11 new girls, bringing our total to 13. Yes, we only had two girls carry over from last year, which is to say, we had very few last year (5 out of 40). The team is now 13 out of 50 girls, which while not gender equal, is much closer to the same proportion of girls in tech classes. Though we have had some new...issues this year, it has certainly been a great experience. I couldn't imagine the team without either gender; some of the ladies have taken up very important fields (welding for one...)

In any case, I feel that any team made to exclude any group is bad, and shouldn't be allowed in FIRST, if not officially, it should be frowned upon. If someone founded a team in my school which disallowed girls (or guys) from joining, there would be quite a hullabaloo.

[DeAnnaC]

One all-girls team that we have played before is the Robettes, from Mendota Springs, MN.

Their team is school based and they attend an all-girls Catholic school but their mentors appeared to be all male.

There is an all-boys Catholic school and all-girls Catholic school here in St. Louis, but they joined together to form one FRC team.

When the Robettes attended the St. Louis Regional, they'd wear very colorful hot pink tights and the plaid school skirts. Maybe a little distracting to the boys.. or is that part of their strategy? They always held their own against the mixed gender teams and usually went home with a trohphy of some kind.

The completion of the team stats each year for our team is interesting.. 1/2 of our team is homeschooled and many of those parents do not keep track of what 'grade' their student is in. This year we've got students from 5 different counties and 12 different schools, so it's quite the mix of students to figure out the % of low income students in your district.

On the Autism Spectrum question - by my 6 years of experience with the team, we've had 1-2 students every year that exhibit some spectrum behaviors. Does robotics draw those kind of kids in because it's ok to be a little obsessive about things that Autistic kids are good at like rules/safety or 3d animation? FIRST is different than most teams - it's ok to work on some things at your own pace, in your own way and still be part of a team, so maybe that is part of the attraction?

DeAnna

[Phcullen]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

Name some teams that are all girls teams that are formed solely to exclude boys. Do you know of any?

Also, does it hurt to use capitalization in your sentences? Just asking...

Jane

team 3504 was givin the funding by CMU to have an all girls team. im not saying they are there to exclude boys and i agree that maybe it is a more comfortable situation for girls to have that environment. but i think that teams should be open

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

Our team was proud this year to recruit 11 new girls, bringing our total to 13. Yes, we only had two girls carry over from last year, which is to say, we had very few last year (5 out of 40). The team is now 13 out of 50 girls, which while not gender equal, is much closer to the same proportion of girls in tech classes. Though we have had some new...issues this year, it has certainly been a great experience. I couldn't imagine the team without either gender; some of the ladies have taken up very important fields (welding for one...)

In any case, I feel that any team made to exclude any group is bad, and shouldn't be allowed in FIRST, if not officially, it should be frowned upon. If someone founded a team in my school which disallowed girls (or guys) from joining, there would be quite a hullabaloo.

In the last couple of years we have been having a declining enrollment of girls on the team when we usually have had more since I have been on the team (actually it's been rather difficult maintaining the student population period). Usually the best way to attract girls is when they have siblings (The Emerson girls for example) or friends.

[Kims Robot]

This topic is very very close to my heart, as I am a female engineer... am an engineer because of FIRST... and have seen how hard it is to be a female in engineering and how few women engineering role models there are.

I'll start with that I see absolutely nothing wrong with all-girls teams. Teams "exclude" all the time... some teams are seniors only, some require applications and hand select students, most ONLY allow students from their school. Whatever the reason, those teams aren't "complained" about. Exclusivity is not just in all girls teams.

1511's second year I organized a "Girls Night"... all the girls came over to my apartment, we had food, painted nails, stuff like that. Yes we excluded the boys on purpose, it was a chance for the girls & female mentors & moms to "bond". The boys complained to no end. I told them I had ZERO problem with the boys organizing a "boys night". Yet they never did.

I also offered to personally sponsor an all girls FLL team if one got started in the Rochester area. I feel VERY strongly that especially at the middle school age boys push girls aside and don't give them the chance/credit that they deserve. And most girls will just back off and let the boys do the work. This (IMO) is why so few girls end up in technical careers. The only girls that "make it" in engineering are the ones that aren't afraid to push past the boys and give it their all. I often see the same happen on FRC teams. Unless a mentor actively drags girls into design & engineering tasks, the girls often gravitate to things like the Chairmans Award, media, spirit, etc.

Thus I think an all girls team is a great way for girls to have exclusive access to all tasks and realize that they really CAN do it just as well as boys. The point isnt to exclude the boys or deny them opportunity, the point is to push the issue that arises when boys & girls mix. Now the real world is Co-ed, so to me FLL is the most appropriate place to do an all girls team. FRC should be a micrcosm of the real world. But I see the point of continuing it in FRC. I had the chance to see 2 all girls teams at DC, and it was great to see girls really getting their hands in the robots, not just standing on the sideline charging the batteries.

Originally Posted by Karthik

Andy makes a list of 43 technical mentors who have had huge impacts on the engineering evolution of FRC. Every single one of them is a male. Why is that? Where are all our female rockstar engineers?

This provoked a lot of thought in my head... and also a little bit of hurt at first. I remember sitting at the Championship Panel presentation last year staring at all the men. It was frustrating and aggravating. I knew the answer to every question that was asked, and I was a female engineer. But I'm not a "Rock Star". Why? I have no idea really. I can talk gear ratios, battery capacities, power curves, PID loops, PWM wiring, networking, scouting statistics, rules & ranking points with anyone. But the odder thing was sitting there, knowing I knew all of that, yet I couldn't think of a single other female mentor that I knew that knew all the same. Every "involved" female mentor outside of my team that I could name was a team leader, a mom, a teacher... none were engineering mentors. Even sitting here now, I am dumbfounded to think of one. But I also think about nearly all my posts here on CD. Most have to do with organization, leadership, scouting, strategy, rules, etc... I don't do a lot of the tech-e talk here. And maybe thats what makes an FRC engineering rock star?

I graduated from Clarkson with an Electrical Engineering Degree and have worked as a Systems Engineer for nearly 9 years now. I have a nearly complete Masters in Robotic Intelligence from RIT. In looking at my career and watching other women, I have to say that I think some of what I have noticed has spilled over into FIRST.

In general, Women are big picture thinkers. They are organizers, they are managers. Its the reason I gravitated towards systems engineering. I liked the big picture better than sitting at a desk drawing up digital electronics for the rest of my life. I like having enough technical depth to work with customers to define their exact needs and define the requirements & specifications for our products & systems. Am I doing the board layout? no. Do I do the packaging design? no. Do I design the power circuits? no. Do I program in the networking stack? no. But can I tell you a heck of a lot about all of it? of course. Its the same reason I liked being an FRC team leader, and the team's systems engineer.

I guess I wish I knew how to change this. We need to find the female engineering mentors in FIRST and start having them present/co-present technical conferences at the championships. We need to start showing the girls on the teams that there are female engineering "rock stars" to look up to.

But personally, I think its fine to have all-girls teams. For the original poster... Think about the DC regional you were just at... even with 2/63 FRC teams being all-girls, I guarantee that less than 20% of the students attending the event were female. (And heck, I know the boys on our team loved having the all-girls Waldo team to "hang around" with!) Plus I am pretty certain that there was an All-Boys team there... and no one complained (Boys Latin School).

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by DeAnnaC

One all-girls team that we have played before is the Robettes, from Mendota Springs, MN.

Their team is school based and they attend an all-girls Catholic school but their mentors appeared to be all male.

The Robettes have both male and female mentors.

As long as it isn't preventing males from participating (either they have another team as an option, or there aren't any to exclude like in 2177's case) I have no problem with all female teams. If the mentors of that particular team think that is the best way to work towards the goals of FIRST, who am I to say otherwise?

Note: The above doesn't mean that I would be against female teams even if I felt it were my place to judge.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

If someone founded a team in my school which disallowed girls (or guys) from joining, there would be quite a hullabaloo.

You don't have girls' basketball, soccer, lacrosse, volleyball, softball, or track?

Jane

[purpleandplasma]

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

This topic is very very close to my heart, as I am a female engineer... am an engineer because of FIRST... and have seen how hard it is to be a female in engineering and how few women engineering role models there are.

I'll start with that I see absolutely nothing wrong with all-girls teams. Teams "exclude" all the time... some teams are seniors only, some require applications and hand select students, most ONLY allow students from their school. Whatever the reason, those teams aren't "complained" about. Exclusivity is not just in all girls teams.

1511's second year I organized a "Girls Night"... all the girls came over to my apartment, we had food, painted nails, stuff like that. Yes we excluded the boys on purpose, it was a chance for the girls & female mentors & moms to "bond". The boys complained to no end. I told them I had ZERO problem with the boys organizing a "boys night". Yet they never did.

I also offered to personally sponsor an all girls FLL team if one got started in the Rochester area. I feel VERY strongly that especially at the middle school age boys push girls aside and don't give them the chance/credit that they deserve. And most girls will just back off and let the boys do the work. This (IMO) is why so few girls end up in technical careers. The only girls that "make it" in engineering are the ones that aren't afraid to push past the boys and give it their all. I often see the same happen on FRC teams. Unless a mentor actively drags girls into design & engineering tasks, the girls often gravitate to things like the Chairmans Award, media, spirit, etc.

Thus I think an all girls team is a great way for girls to have exclusive access to all tasks and realize that they really CAN do it just as well as boys. The point isnt to exclude the boys or deny them opportunity, the point is to push the issue that arises when boys & girls mix. Now the real world is Co-ed, so to me FLL is the most appropriate place to do an all girls team. FRC should be a micrcosm of the real world. But I see the point of continuing it in FRC. I had the chance to see 2 all girls teams at DC, and it was great to see girls really getting their hands in the robots, not just standing on the sideline charging the batteries.



This provoked a lot of thought in my head... and also a little bit of hurt at first. I remember sitting at the Championship Panel presentation last year staring at all the men. It was frustrating and aggravating. I knew the answer to every question that was asked, and I was a female engineer. But I'm not a "Rock Star". Why? I have no idea really. I can talk gear ratios, battery capacities, power curves, PID loops, PWM wiring, networking, scouting statistics, rules & ranking points with anyone. But the odder thing was sitting there, knowing I knew all of that, yet I couldn't think of a single other female mentor that I knew that knew all the same. Every "involved" female mentor outside of my team that I could name was a team leader, a mom, a teacher... none were engineering mentors. Even sitting here now, I am dumbfounded to think of one. But I also think about nearly all my posts here on CD. Most have to do with organization, leadership, scouting, strategy, rules, etc... I don't do a lot of the tech-e talk here. And maybe thats what makes an FRC engineering rock star?

I graduated from Clarkson with an Electrical Engineering Degree and have worked as a Systems Engineer for nearly 9 years now. I have a nearly complete Masters in Robotic Intelligence from RIT. In looking at my career and watching other women, I have to say that I think some of what I have noticed has spilled over into FIRST.

In general, Women are big picture thinkers. They are organizers, they are managers. Its the reason I gravitated towards systems engineering. I liked the big picture better than sitting at a desk drawing up digital electronics for the rest of my life. I like having enough technical depth to work with customers to define their exact needs and define the requirements & specifications for our products & systems. Am I doing the board layout? no. Do I do the packaging design? no. Do I design the power circuits? no. Do I program in the networking stack? no. But can I tell you a heck of a lot about all of it? of course. Its the same reason I liked being an FRC team leader, and the team's systems engineer.

I guess I wish I knew how to change this. We need to find the female engineering mentors in FIRST and start having them present/co-present technical conferences at the championships. We need to start showing the girls on the teams that there are female engineering "rock stars" to look up to.

But personally, I think its fine to have all-girls teams. For the original poster... Think about the DC regional you were just at... even with 2/63 FRC teams being all-girls, I guarantee that less than 20% of the students attending the event were female. (And heck, I know the boys on our team loved having the all-girls Waldo team to "hang around" with!) Plus I am pretty certain that there was an All-Boys team there... and no one complained (Boys Latin School).

Can i just say thank you. This really is an inspiration to me. I am a girl that wants to be an engineer, and we lack female mentors. I worked on the robot, on drive team, yet did doc. & pub. and spirit. I think it is so important to have girls, and its nice to see/ hear from a woman that was in first and moved into engineering. You are an inspiration, and thanks!

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

This provoked a lot of thought in my head... and also a little bit of hurt at first. I remember sitting at the Championship Panel presentation last year staring at all the men. It was frustrating and aggravating. I knew the answer to every question that was asked, and I was a female engineer. But I'm not a "Rock Star". Why? I have no idea really. I can talk gear ratios, battery capacities, power curves, PID loops, PWM wiring, networking, scouting statistics, rules & ranking points with anyone. But the odder thing was sitting there, knowing I knew all of that, yet I couldn't think of a single other female mentor that I knew that knew all the same. Every "involved" female mentor outside of my team that I could name was a team leader, a mom, a teacher... none were engineering mentors. Even sitting here now, I am dumbfounded to think of one. But I also think about nearly all my posts here on CD. Most have to do with organization, leadership, scouting, strategy, rules, etc... I don't do a lot of the tech-e talk here. And maybe thats what makes an FRC engineering rock star?

I graduated from Clarkson with an Electrical Engineering Degree and have worked as a Systems Engineer for nearly 9 years now. I have a nearly complete Masters in Robotic Intelligence from RIT. In looking at my career and watching other women, I have to say that I think some of what I have noticed has spilled over into FIRST.

In general, Women are big picture thinkers. They are organizers, they are managers. Its the reason I gravitated towards systems engineering. I liked the big picture better than sitting at a desk drawing up digital electronics for the rest of my life. I like having enough technical depth to work with customers to define their exact needs and define the requirements & specifications for our products & systems. Am I doing the board layout? no. Do I do the packaging design? no. Do I design the power circuits? no. Do I program in the networking stack? no. But can I tell you a heck of a lot about all of it? of course. Its the same reason I liked being an FRC team leader, and the team's systems engineer.

I guess I wish I knew how to change this. We need to find the female engineering mentors in FIRST and start having them present/co-present technical conferences at the championships. We need to start showing the girls on the teams that there are female engineering "rock stars" to look up to.

But personally, I think its fine to have all-girls teams. For the original poster... Think about the DC regional you were just at... even with 2/63 FRC teams being all-girls, I guarantee that less than 20% of the students attending the event were female. (And heck, I know the boys on our team loved having the all-girls Waldo team to "hang around" with!) Plus I am pretty certain that there was an All-Boys team there... and no one complained (Boys Latin School).

I've always referred to you as The Prototype, Kim. You were what Dean envisioned when he started FIRST. Started out as a dedicated student, went to college and started a successful FIRST team and started another successful FIRST team when you went out into the workforce.
That is terrific for anyone no matter what their gender is.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

I don't do a lot of the tech-e talk here. And maybe thats what makes an FRC engineering rock star?

This might be a good topic for a different thread: What makes an engineering rock star?

My thinking: visibility. It could be via forums, videos, emceeing/announcing... there are WFAs that are very quiet and have very little presence outside perhaps their own local sphere. They are well-respected but are they rock stars?

Do girls need rock stars or do they desire more? Intelligence, visionary thinking, aptitude, common sense, hands-on applications, efficiency, knowledge?

I'm not dissing rock stars but it's funny that you were in the audience at that conference presentation instead a part of the panel. Not surprising though. Just as the powerful teams need to find a way to invite a worthy rookie team to be a part of their alliance, so do the powerful male mentors need to find ways to be more inclusive with their invites. And, they should have been all along - if they would like to help shift the culture. If not, no biggie. FIRST needs to step it, too - helping to highlight women and minorities in their webcasts/videos, like the Kick Off webcasts/videos - giving women more opportunities than just introducing a male VIP or FIRSTer - if they want to shift the culture. If not, no biggie.

Jane

[dag0620]

Despite some slight grammar issues, I want to thank the OP for bringing up a topic that has actually been on my mind for a little while.

To anserw the question as to wether all Girls teams are counterproducive, I don't think so. The philosphy, or at least part, is to get youth involved with Science and Technology, and if there is a FIRST team, I'm sure these ideals are being met.

I understand completely the need to get more females involved both in FIRST and the various STEM fields used into today's world. All girls teams do a great job showcasing the need to get more female involved, both as students and mentors, and I commend them for that.

However beyond publicity and awareness, I fell that having an all girls, or all guys team for that matter, doesn't add to the program.

Part of FIRST is to try to lay the groundwork of working with others, a skill that will be needed in the workplace. I feel that if you want to get that right, teams that have both males and females is the way to go. I understand that this is not always the truth (I'm not trying to be stereotypical) but as a member in any workplace, usually working with a member of your own gender, and working with a member of another gender are going to be different.

What I'm trying to say is that I am 100% fine gender specific teams, or any team that have special criteria for that matter, but if you want to go above and beyond, having a great mix of people on your team will make the experience that much better.

I apologize in advance for any un-clarity in my thoughts - as I've said in the past I'm better with oral expression vs. written expression.

I can see that this discussion is going to get a lot of posts.

Are you talking about a team from an all-girls school? There isn't any problem with that, then.

A team from a co-ed school, though, is another matter. If there is another team at the same school that is all-male, it would still not work. (remember Plessy v. Ferguson?) I personally think they are a bad idea, because they cause tension whether or not they have a male counterpart, and because of society's view of all-male groups versus all-female groups, the practice of two teams would be condoned merely for the existence of the all-male group. Plus, there is not really any reason to split the teams.