Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?

[Boydean]

I don't think all girl teams work against FIRST's goals.

If you look at other sporting competitions you see a clear division between male and female teams (better said, leagues). The reasons for this can go unspoken, but does this division have a negative impact on the sport's primary purpose? If you asked people this I would imagine most would say it doesn't.

What makes FIRST any different? What makes FIRST different is that an all girl team has the same chances (maybe even better chances as described by earlier posters) as guy/girl team, competing in the same competition, to gain the title as winner. Imagine the inspirational impact on those girls when they win that regional (whether it be winner, or chairmans).

The real problem would be if there was a girl only team in the community with only one FRC team, and leads no attempt to start another team for guys (or the other way around). Although, I believe that is a discussion to be left for another time.

[Phcullen]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

You don't have girls' basketball, soccer, lacrosse, volleyball, softball, or track?

Jane

they do that because girls and boys are physicality different saying that this is the same would suggest that girls and boys are incapable of competing against each other fairly in a FIRST competition

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Phcullen

they do that because girls and boys are physicality different saying that this is the same would suggest that girls and boys are incapable of competing against each other fairly in a FIRST competition

Yes, but that post stated a team, it did not state - a robotics team. I chose not to assume something about that post that was not stated clearly.

This is a good topic and I'm glad that you have started this discussion. It makes people uncomfortable and sometimes when people are out of their comfort zones, they actually have to do some thinking and become more aware of the status quo.

If people really wanted to do some thinking, they could look at grants and scholarships that are available to women and minorities. That would help deepen their awareness or make them think harder - so much so that maybe it would make their head hurt.

Jane

[Molten]

Every time people speak of gender roles and equality, they make mentions of the way men and women think differently. Some can try and state one is smarter or better, but I've yet to see any proof to that extent. I have, however heard of study after study that proves we think differently. These differences mean that we aren't the same. We can be equal, but not truly the same. Each job requires a specific skill set and style of thinking/acting in order to do well. If we think differently depending upon our gender, wouldn't it only make sense that some fields would be made up of mostly men while others be made up of mostly women? I don't believe that its simply cut and dry, boys are good at this and girls are good at that. Some of us think differently then our gender would dictate. I'm perhaps the least hands-on engineering student I know. I don't like working with cars or even care how they work. I like the design side of engineering. I know girls in my classes that are very hands on that I'd gladly ask to change a tire or check any other car problem if I needed it. That said, there is a general variation between the sexes. It would seem that engineering fields tend to align with the men's thinking processes so it really wouldn't make sense for engineering to be a perfect 50-50 split. Should it be 60-40? 70-30? 80-20? or should we even really say? I find the problem with mindless feminism* is that it isn't actually feminism at all. I treat girls the way I'd treat a guy(besides some basic chivalry acts). If a FIRST team is all-female due to being an all-girls school or the sort, that is fine. I understand this and have no issues with it. However, I have noticed a few stating that nobody is hurt in situations when girls choose to be on their own team if there are enough in the area. I disagree. I think all sexists need to be put in their place every once in a while. If the girls simply avoid the problem, the problem doesn't go away. The boys will probably just become more stereotyping. Even seeing an all-girls team do well at competition allows them to see girls do well once. Seeing girls on their team taking on leadership roles and doing technical work allows them to see girls do well for weeks. The girls are also going to learn they can do well at the cost of learning to assert themselves. In short, there are definite benefits to having some all-girls teams. It allows them to see how good they are while not getting pushed around. However, this is not an ideal solution. There should be a way of helping the girls without segregating.

To summarize my thoughts, there isn't going to be an 50-50 distribution for most fields due to inherent differences of gender. This does not say we are not equal, but it does suggest we should stop pushing for a 50-50 distribution and just ensure that anyone that wants into the field is allowed and welcome.This means not only that they are allowed on the team but that they are not discriminated against. This discrimination includes any act that treats them differently then any other member of the team. As long as we can guarantee that all are allowed and welcome, we really shouldn't be placing our own bias on how many of which gender we believe should be on the team.

I apologize for this lengthy post after not posting for a while. I hope it was all worth reading.

Jason

*I specifically said mindless feminism. By that, I refer to those that suggest anything that pushes for "equality" without thinking about the actual word equal.

[ATannahill]

Re: Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?

Simply put, no. F.I.R.S.T. is For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology. These teams inspire girls to pursue science and technology (I have no statistics to prove this but I am going to assume as such).

Are they (or any team that excludes based on something petty) the best at inspiring science and technology? I doubt it. A diversified team can bring more ideas and different view than one that is not.

Now to address the question in your poll. Should exclusive teams be allowed in FIRST?

IMO no. I don't care if your parents paid money to send you to an exclusive school or if mentors or sponsors feel that it is in the best interest for XYZ to happen. You WILL at some point have to work with other kinds of people. If you demand to not work with person X because they are ______, your going to be the one on the ugly end of the stick.

I have seen people talk about awards or how well a team's robot did. I find this information counterintuitive to the point that should be expressed in this thread.

[emekablue]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

This topic is not a topic that is cut and dried or black and white. I wish that it were and I wish that it would become so in my lifetime. At the rate we are moving, my lifetime will end and this will still be a topic of discussion that generates controversy.

Controversy can be very healthy and this is.

It's easy to be idealistic and say what's the big deal? Women have to work in the real world, they may as well get used to it by working on teams that include boys/men.

That's fine and dandy. Look at some of the winning teams' photos that are cropping up in CD and look at the team photos and mentor listings/descriptions on their websites. Where are the technical women mentors on the college level teams and the corporate level teams? Where are the majority of technical mentors that are women on these teams? See any?

Look around in the engineering and science classes in your high school and in your college courses and see how the numbers break down. I've talked with corporate leaders who are well aware of the lack of women in these fields and therefore, cannot hire them - because they don't exist.

How many girls actually go through the FRC program and decide on an engineering major? How many women that had their start in these robotics programs have gone on into fields of math, science, and engineering?

I welcome posts from the women who are scientists and engineers and who read CD. Share your thoughts.

Jane

Hmm. But I don't think the FIRST program is so "do or die", for lack of a better term. The experience of being on a robotics team is life-changing no doubt; I'm female and have always wanted to become a scientist to some degree and FIRST gives me first-hand experience into the world of technology every day(: But I think the view of FIRST vigorously churning out generation after generation of young thoughtful students bounding into various STEM fields is... unrealistic and not exactly the ideal goal of the program. The real problem may be the inaccessibility & lack of appeal of engineering to youth around the country.

The problems really can't be blamed upon the lack of all girl teams/mentors/ general female involvement in the FIRST community nor can one force the collaboration of all these people in order to change mindsets of girls in general. So far, I think First does what it can and does it well! As sophomore in high school knowing my locknuts, bearings, transmissions, etc. definitely stands proof!

You bring up good points, Jane!

[Grim Tuesday]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

You don't have girls' basketball, soccer, lacrosse, volleyball, softball, or track?

Jane

But there is also a boys basketball, soccer, lacrosse, volleyball, softball, and track.

You would be hard pressed to find a school/area with enough money/sponsors to support two teams so close.

[SGS]

This of course excludes cases where a team is formed from an all girls school or any other reasonable exception.

I am the captain of an all girls team. We are not all-female because we have anything to prove, but merely because we are based out of an all-girls school.

Coincidentally, my cousins are on an all boys team you may have heard of:
254 Cheesy Poofs is a male-team. No one has ever had a problem with that. They are based out of a Boys school.

All of our mentors are men, which has led to some interesting working environments, because yes, girls do not learn the same way as boys do. Most of girls join us never using a tool before and often scared to use power tool. But girls leave our program with welding and machining experience and about 75% go on to study a STEM career.

At Alamo and Lone Star we have girl come to our pit saying "You guys are an all girl team? Really? The girls on our team just do outreach and PR." If this is the result of a co-ed team, I fear for the future of engineering.

Our team strives to be a normal team and escape the stigma that comes with being an all-femal team. However, we strive to show girl that YES they can be successful in a STEM situation (we are a 3rd year team, 2 time finalist, alliance captain, Engineering Inspiration winners, and 2 time spirit award winners) and that girls belong building the robot and not just in PR.

A girls-team is the perfect place for girls to learn about technology, why? Because more timid girls will not be embarrassed or intimidated by male-peers who are more likely to have experience with tools and be less timid around them. You can accuse me of making assumptions, but studies show girls learn better in an all female environment while boys learn better in a co-ed environment because of this reason.

On final note consider this. Before every match, my team is not announced as "3103 the team from Duchesne Academy" we are "3103 the GIRLS from Duchesne Academy" I am not ashamed to be a girl, but does it really matter if your team has girls, boys, or is co-ed? Aren't we all trying to achieve the same things?

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by SGS

If this is the result of a co-ed team, I fear for the future of engineering.

I never blame outcomes on the structure of a team, I see everything as an effect of the people involved.

If the mentors on those teams are not encouraging ALL students on the team to learn about ALL aspects of the team, they might be missing the point of an FRC team.

Again, don't blame the structure of a team, blame the people involved.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

But there is also a boys basketball, soccer, lacrosse, volleyball, softball, and track.

You would be hard pressed to find a school/area with enough money/sponsors to support two teams so close.

I'm not saying there needs to be. I was addressing the word, hullabaloo. Did I spell that right?

Honestly, my thinking is constantly evolving, thanks to some wise mentors who have spent time talking with and mentoring me. One is Sarah Plemmons from FRC 1902, Exploding Bacon. Another is Cynette Cavaliere from FRC 1511, Rolling Thunder. Another is Andy Baker from well, we know who Andy is and where he is from, but for this discussion, he is a WFA 2003 from the TechnoKats, FRC 45, and from AndyMark, Inc. These 3 have helped me in my road to understanding the roles of women in this robotics world and what their impact is on our future world of math, science, and engineering. I have also been inspired by posts made here in CD by Dave Lavery, Engineering mentor for FRC 116, and Program Executive For Solar System Exploration for NASA, and by the thread that we referred to here in this thread, where FRC 842, Falcon Robotics, undertook an incredible experiment/journey and came out wiser for it and able to share their wisdom with us, the FIRST and CD community.

I value the all-girls teams like 2881, the Lady Cans, here in Austin, a Girl Scout team that is so inspirational to be around and to compete with. I also value teams like FRC 234, Cyber Blue, a co-ed team that has a selection process. If you study that team and its business plan, you will understand the thinking, the process, and the team's standards of excellence. No team should be denied entrance into FIRST or judged by how it represents itself and its community. It may have goals and purposes that we will only learn about by asking its membership or reading its Chairman's submission and business plan. Because you feel a certain way today, don't let that stop you from learning and thinking about tomorrow. Allow yourself some discomfort when thinking about change.

Jane

[David Dawson]

While I don't have a strong opinion about girls teams. I still feel the need to stomp out any sports comparisons. First is not a sport. Just because you have a team doesn't make it a sport. And the only reason sports separate girls and boys are due to the physical differences between their bodies.

[davidthefat]

Just to tell you, there was a girl on a local varsity football team a few years back. And another freshman football team2 years ago. (different schools) and they weren't the kicker, they were tight ends

[SGS]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

If the mentors on those teams are not encouraging ALL students on the team to learn about ALL aspects of the team, they might be missing the point of an FRC team.

Again, don't blame the structure of a team, blame the people involved.

You are correct, its just I have seen this occur numerous times and it breaks my heart.

[Dancin103]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

Team 2340 tried to have all female mentors to work along their all girls team but I don't think they were quite able to have it be exclusive to just females.
If a dad has skills in the shop and offers to help a team would be crazy to turn down assistance from someone who wants to help no matter what their gender is.

I'm not really sure what to think of this thread, but I have a few things to say (I think they're relevant, but if they are not please do let me know). Why does it matter who (students and mentors) comprise a team. Yes, if a team is denying letting a certain student in for being male or female that is discriminatory. If a team is all male, all female, or split down the middle, what does it matter. If they are successful what does it matter? Success can be measured in many different ways whether success is completing the robot or winning the competition, if a team is successful, why does it matter who comprises the team? (Yes it is great to have a team in which half is female and half is male, because let's face it the STEM world is primarily male dominated, and females in the field are rare to come across so getting them involved is FANTASTIC!) A team is a team and functions as one, if the team is all girls that's great, if it's all guys that's great too, and if it's a mix of many diverse students that's great as well. In my opinion, the things that matter are a.) were the teams end goals met and b.) did everyone have fun?

This is just my $0.02. Feel free to comment as necessary.

Cass

[Dancin103]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

I never blame outcomes on the structure of a team, I see everything as an effect of the people involved.

If the mentors on those teams are not encouraging ALL students on the team to learn about ALL aspects of the team, they might be missing the point of an FRC team.

Again, don't blame the structure of a team, blame the people involved.

This is true in every single way. We take the time to teach our students each aspect of our team and let them choose what department they want to be apart of. All the mentors and students involved are what make the team.

Cass