Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?

[MamaSpoldi]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

This comment is going to bring a rain of criticism down on my head so I've opened my umbrella in advance.
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It can start with a mentor calling herself an engineer or mentor instead of a mom when participating in CD, in FIRST programs, and in talking with people about your role on a team. Very small shift but very significant.

Jane, I'm not here to rain on your parade. But I just want to offer up this perspective. I am an engineering mentor for my team first and foremost. However, as you see in my title here, I also very much consider myself a Team Mom which is another title I wear with pride. I feel that both aspects of my team role are applicable to who I am and how I portray myself on CD. And although I sometimes provide NEM support to my team, my primary role is that of the programming mentor and the other roles I play do not diminish that primary role or the skills that I learned to get there; they enhance my ability to interact and inspire ALL the students on my team.

I must emphasize that everyone on my team and those that I have interacted with in FIRST are well aware that I am an engineer, not "just a team Mom". But both of those roles are ones that I am proud of.

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

As a potential sponsor of an All-Girls FLL team I think this statement is a generalization. I think there are plenty of sponsors who may make that decision for the right reasons. They realize they don't have the diversity they want in their recruiting, so they reach deeper, to a point where they can impact the pool of potential hires available. They wish to get more girls more hands on time, and get more girls into the STEM pipeline. I think this can be the case, and is in the case of the sponsorship that I offered.

However, I have seen the mar diversity can place on a corporation. I was a college recruiter for several years (for my engineering group), and we were told that if we recruited 40% minorities overall, we would get a bonus. To me, it was a very very dumb rule. I wasn't going to hire a female just because I would get a bonus. I was going to have to work with that female, and if she couldn't do the job as well as the male, I'm sorry, but I would rather hire the male. Now if I had two candidates that were exactly/nearly equal, I would hire the female, but any recruiter knows candidates NEVER come out exactly equal. I interviewed plenty of women who it was unfortunately painfully clear that others had "carried" them through their classes, or teachers perhaps had just given them passing grades.


See... I don't know... having gone through all of this myself, I am not convinced that there is ever a "right place" or "right time" to be exposed to the discriminations we do faces as female engineers. Here's what I tell a lot of people about being a girl going into engineering...

Is it EASY to be a Female in Engineering?
1. Yes. Its EASIER to get into college. Engineering colleges strive for diversity. I joke that I probably got "the female scholarship" even though none of my scholarships specifically said that.
2. No. It SUCKS being a female engineer in college. You face professors that don't think women should be engineers. You face boys that don't think you would make a good lab partner because you are a girl. You face a room of 64 men as the only female because you chose the electrical/computer engineering department. It SUCKS. Sure there are the girls that get all the starry eyed boys to do all the work for them, but that doesn't lead to a real education in my mind.
3. Yes. Getting a job out of college IS easier as a girl. I guarantee I got a few extra interviews BECAUSE the name on my resume was female. I wont deny that. I like to think the job offers I got, I got on my merits & accomplishments, but I wont pretend that my resume with a 3.3 GPA was any more impressive than some of my male friends with 3.5's that didnt get an interview. I had the most job offers of any of the Electrical/Computer engineers graduating from Clarkson my year... however, I attribute that to my THIRTY on campus interviews, not my gender. Sometimes girls just work harder
4. No. Being a female in engineering ISNT easy. My first internship, there was a guy who didnt want to work with me or give me the time of day because he didnt think female engineers were smart enough. I hit heads with plenty of old engineers that thought the same. I also encountered several female interns/engineers that were clearly "giving us a bad name" as they always let the guys do the work for them. Its frustrating to see these girls that have/had so much potential just give in to society and use their gender to more advantage than their brain. It aggravates me to no end.


I completely agree with this, and I think up until seeing the panel last year, I was on the same exact thought process. But these "FIRST Rock Stars" have kids asking for their autographs, they are sought out at competitions, they are the Idols that Dean & Woodie were hoping would come out of this program... yet not a single female among the ranks. Im far from caring if I or anyone I know is THAT female rock star, as as you state, I know the impact I have made. I've seen it in all that 229 & 1511 have accomplished, in their alumni who email me with their latest accomplishments or ask me for recommendations... yet I still want SOMEONE to be that female rock star, the one that we can all see up on those pedestals alongside all the males. Some teams are fortunate to have female mentors like that, but for those that don't, I want there to be a female Rock Star for all those girls to look up to. To know that they can succeed and wont be pushed out in college or once they enter their career. To know its possible.

Well said! Wow, Kim... I hope I have a chance to meet you sometime. I think we would have a lot to talk about. I agree with you completely in both your lack of enthusiasm for "forced diversity" as well as your assessment of the ups and downs of being a female engineer in college and the workplace. Not sure if it is reassuring or disappointing to know that things have not changed too much in the last 20 years.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

See... I don't know... having gone through all of this myself, I am not convinced that there is ever a "right place" or "right time" to be exposed to the discriminations we do faces as female engineers. Here's what I tell a lot of people about being a girl going into engineering...

I have no idea either, my thoughts are just that, thoughts. Is there a "right time" to be exposed to discrimination? Absolutely not. However, as a female pursuing a STEM career, its tough to ignore that discrimination exists.

I'm a huge believer in live and let live. Our team is very unique in itself for our own reasons, but I hope other teams can just accept it as the way we do things and move on.

I don't think there is a right answer here, and I don't think anyone's made an argument that there is one. For some teams and individuals an all girls team may be the best option, for others it will not be. It's very important that we not paint with such a broad brush on these types of issues.

-Brando

[Robert Cawthon]

I will give my opinion just because. I do not feel that creating a team of the same sex for the purpose of having the same sex is proper. It may happen that a team is all girls (boys) just because of the fact that the school is all of one sex, or because it just worked out that way. (Most likely to be an all boys team but it could happen with the girls.) Blocking (or discouraging) members from the opposite sex from joining a team should be prohibited or strongly frowned upon. My .02

[Phcullen]

Originally Posted by MamaSpoldi

one thing that I see that truly upsets me is when an all-girls team receives an award and it is implied that the judges were impressed by what they did considering it was all girls. This is completely unacceptable either to give the award for that reason or to imply such when it is in fact not the case. If the girls are not held to the same standards as the boys, they are left feeling like they cannot measure up those standards - a ridiculous notion. And implying that the standard is different is as just as damaging. So I ask that people judge females in engineering not because they are girls but regardless of it.

this is what i was referring to when i stated that the formation of these teams implies a handicap

Originally Posted by purpleandplasma

i know for a fact that women of engineering will only support an all girls team, and if a team started up for all girls, had them as a sponsor, then added guys, they would loose that sponsor... which i get, but i think it is unfair

here is a problem where we see a group that has all the right to chose who they support and they obviously would want to support teams encouraging women to go into engineering. but wouldn't supporting teams that have women mentors be a better use of there money? not only would it give the girls on the team an example of a woman who has succeeded in that field but also discourage boys on the team from developing thoughts that women are incapable or less capable of succeeding in those fields

once again i would like to restate a question and instead of asking if all girl teams should not be allowed in FIRST what i really want to ask is <u>should the development of all exclusive teams be discouraged on FRC teams in FIRST?</u> because it encourages the thought that men and women are not equally capable. no one can say they have never felt differently about a team when they hear that it is all girl regardless of this feeling being positive or negative having the segregation will make you think differently and subconsciously question equality between the sexes not only in opportunity but also in capability. i also specifically stated FRC in this because i do see in importance to discourage the stereotype that are being installed into young children

if sexism to the point of discouragement for women to advance in education is still as prevalent in other arias and more of a problem than i have personally ever seen, where girls are not encourage to participate that maybe having teams strictly for girls is the way to go. but then this really doesn't do anything to change the prejudice that is there and only shelters the girls from that

Mikell Taylor's story is wonderful and give good reason to the development of all girl teams. I would like to thank her for her input

Kims Robot- i enjoyed what you wrote too but when you answer your own question of "Is it EASY to be a Female in Engineering?" you seem to start blaming women who " give in to society and use their gender to more advantage than their brain." and yet you state earlier in your same set of answers that you certainly did take advantage of this with job interviews where you knew your gender was the only thing that made you more desirable to the potential employer. i am not accusing you of anything and nor should anyone else nobody would give up any advantage they had on there competition. just as they found a way to get payed without doing as much work there is clearly a problem but no one is going to remove quotas for employment or enrollment in fear of being accused that they are against equal opportunity.

if there are any members or alumni of co-ed teams with an all girl team in the aria i would like to hear your views on this topic and how you think having that effects your team/the girls on your team(if there are any) and anything else you would like to say. your thought would be greatly appreciated//if you know anybody in this scenario could you please refer them to this thread?

[ZipTie3182]

Athena's Warriors, team 3182 from CT is an all girls team not sponsored through a school for those who were wondering if we existed We also are all female mentored except for one mentor who is the husband of one of our female mentors. We were founded by the Women of Innovation group.

As the Co-Captain of our team, I can say that many or even most of the girls on our team would not have joined if it had been a co-ed team, myself included. Two years ago when I found out about the team, I really had no interest (or no idea of my interest) in robotics. I've always loved technology, but my knowledge was limited mostly to graphic design. Now, I am the co-captain of my team and robotics is really my life. I don't know what I would do without it truthfully. I spend most of my free time researching new ideas for our robot or reading chief delphi for hints. Let me say I was really intimidated when I first began reading as last year was our rookie year and all the technical terms on here made my head hurt. Now though, I have learned enough to keep up, one of the things I am most proud of

Robotics was never something I would have considered before, and now I want to be an engineer.

I could never say having an exclusively female team is wrong, because frankly my team has changed my life so drastically.


-Anna

[maryliz:)]

The Firebirds (433) are one of the longest-running all-female FRC teams. We are based out of an all-girls high school, so therefore the only logical option would be to not have boys on the team. Our school stresses the importance of empowering women through single-sex education.

We comprise 55 student team members, and 80 percent of our alums have gone on to major in STEM (as opposed to only 5% national avg for women). Frankly, I think these statistics are AWESOME. Because we're an all-girls team, our students have to do everything, from building to programming to designing to PR to spirit. Each girl on the team finds an area where she feels she can excel, but we encourage every team member to work with power tools at least once in her career. Many end up finding a passion for drills and saws that they never knew they had, which is why we've been able to inspire so many alums to continue their engineering education. Also, no matter what field our team members end up in, they will surely succeed due largely in part to the confidence instilled in them by being on a FIRST team.

This past October, we hosted our first off-season competition, the girlPOWER Invitational. Ten teams attended POWER (Promoting Outstanding Women Engineers through Robotics), only 3 of them all-girls. The rest were coed teams, but only girls on the team were allowed to drive the robots and work in the pits. We decided to host this event after attending too many competitions where the girls were discouraged from working in these technical positions. We wanted to give the girls on every team the opportunity to benefit from everything a FIRST team has to offer, and hopefully give them the confidence to return to their own teams and try something new on the build team, or try out for the drive team. As long as the girls who want to build the robot are given a fair shot, we have accomplished something.

FIRST is such an amazing program, and no student should be limited in any way from participating, regardless of gender. Yes, it just so happens that girls on robotics teams are extremely outnumbered. But on our team we don't see this as a disadvantage, or anything that should be given a sympathy vote. In the words of one of our mentors and a team alum: “I like to think of us as a great team that just happens to be all-girls, not an all-girls team who just happens to be great. We are equals and can hold our own with the boys. And if along the way we just happen to change the
face of what a typical FIRST robotics student looks like, then we have accomplished something truly wonderful. This accomplishment hopefully can be replicated in all aspects of society, one Firebird at a time.”

[lgaroppz]

Speaking as a member of an all-girls team (Team 433), I'm obviously going to say they're a positive thing.
Guys tend to be more controlling than girls. If we had guys on our team I don't think I would ever get to do anything in the way of power tools or heavy lifting.
Because there is a lack of testosterone on our team, the girls get a chance to use the power tools and prove that we can carry the robot too.
Sometimes I even find it hard to wrestle work away from our male mentors (though I don't blame them, it's addictive).
Point being: being female is not a handicap, and having all-girl teams around allows us to enter more easily into a typically male dominated area.

[Molten]

Ok, as a reply to Jaine:

"Do you really think men are suffering on an institutional level (equivalent to how women currently suffer) just because of a few all-girls STEM programs?"

My point isn't that we are suffering equally by it. My point is that your just adding more differences. Your widening the gap of equal treatment between men and women. Whether it is for one gender's benefit or the other, sexism is sexism. You can't both fight it while promoting it.

"How do you propose to magically remove the cultural advantages given to males without making any real concerted effort to level the playing field?"

I'm not saying that you shouldn't try to help girls out. I'm just suggesting that you might be better off having after-school activities that promote learning how to use power-tools to all kids from a younger age. If you want, make it mother-daughter nights and father-son nights. Do the same with cooking and other things guys generally avoid. This issue really should be dealt with at the youngest age possible before the child is completely set in their sexist ways.

"I agree with you that parents should raise their children equally, but how do we convince people that equal treatment is necessary? The only way to do that is by shattering the stereotypes and demonstrating to the world that women and girls CAN make great scientists and engineers, and that raising them differently on the basis of their gender is patently wrong."

I really don't see this as a means of convincing at all. I mean, I've seen alot of successful people of minorities and none of them have made those around them believe that equal treatment is necessary. The first woman in space was back in 1963. That is about as big a publicity stunt I can imagine. If that didn't work, what do you think would? In short, that is not "the only way". I'm not even sure if that way really works. It would seem a way would be to promote technology to all students starting in elementary and working its way into power tools.

"Again, you must think we live in some kind of dream world where every instance of sexism and racism is dealt with swiftly and justly. I can tell you from personal experience in engineering that this is not the case. If it were possible to ensure that no sexism was ever allowed to occur on any FIRST team ever, then yeah -- obviously there wouldn't be any need for all girl-teams. But until that day -- when we have stamped-out all forms of sexism -- we need to keep trying to effect positive cultural change, and many of the all-girl teams have proven themselves quite effective at doing just that."

On this one I think you missed my point completely. If you were to stamp out all sexism and racism in the world except for women only and minority only teams/scholarships/organizations/whatever, sexism and racism would still exist because these organizations exist. I'm also not suggesting that the world is perfect on this matter. Sometimes things go unnoticed, but if a worker is discriminating...eventually it will catch up with them. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but at some point there will be repercussions.

"Likewise, we can't just tell people to stop being sexist (i.e. attacking only the "problem")... but we can show them why and how stereotypes fail by giving young women room to grow without judgement. The more visibly successful women there are in STEM, the more people's prejudices will begin to break down. In this way, I don't see how we could view the mitigation of the "symptom" as anything other than a success."

This one I'm just going to admit I'm confused. How is showing successful women prove they are disadvantaged? I found the story by Mikell Taylor's story was a much stronger statement of why it is wrong than all the personal statements of success this thread has had combined. Women who are successful are poor examples of the sexism because of their success. Instances of women who could do amazing things but were discouraged would be much more compelling.

Note to all: Though this is a direct response to Jaine and her comments, I welcome thoughts from all and thanks for the interesting topic.

Jason

[davidthefat]

"FIRST is here to inspire you, to challenge you. Part of that process is giving you a task too hard, resources too little, people too many, time too short." - ebarker

That really stood out to me in the spotlighted posts. Now, I see an all female team as a direct challenge against stereotypes. Now, personally, the way I see it is that all teams are essentially that: a challenge against the stereotypes and the socially acceptable norm. Every team is essentially a business; society still holds the belief that teens are not mature enough to run such a business successfully. Now, I see teams everywhere that directly refutes that belief. I think an all female team should be embraced, not shunned. I personally find an all female team inspiring, especially when they kick my butt.

"You got a dream, you gotta protect it. People can't do something themselves, they wanna tell you that you can't do it. You want something? Go get it. Period." -Christopher Gardner

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_yW3152Ffc

[MariaCastro]

Being female is not a handicap, The STEM Field has been predominantly men since the BC times. There has been a sub-conscience belief in society that the man has an advantage in these fields. (Archimedes, Galileo,Newton, Einstein are just example of how long men have dominated in STEM) It is extremely difficult to change society and to fully accept females into STEM within only 50 years.

Even though Many teams in FIRST have females on there teams, not all are engaged with the robots, There ARE females in leadership positions and major roles, but as an overall males are still dominant.

All female teams are just a bridges that facilitates a females entry into the world of STEM. This is just a stepping stone for some. One our team we have an All Girls Underwater Robotics Team named LEGIT (Leading and Empowering Girls Into Technology). Some females may feel insecure directly going into the main team that has some male leaders. (our FIRST team has a majority of females). Having the all girls teams has allowed us to recruit more females and has enabled them to work side by side with the more experienced members of our team.

[MentorOfSteel]

I am a (male) mentor on FIRST team 3504, Girls of Steel, a FIRST team composed of girls from all over the Pittsburgh area. This thread is timely for me. I undertook mentoring 3504 with many of the same reservations about all-girl teams that have been expressed in this thread. But my experiences over the past six or so months have convinced me that all-girls teams are a good thing and can play a real role in increasing the number of girls who decide to pursue technical careers.

As a faculty member at Carnegie Mellon University's Robotics Institute, I have been involved in robotics research and education with students ranging from highschool to Ph.D. for the past ten years. I have seen first hand many of the negative dynamics that have been reported in this thread. There are small numbers of women in our classes. I have seen women who marginalize themselves to fit in better with their more aggressive male peers. Alternatively, I have seen women assert themselves and suffer socially for it. You can point to these symptoms as an indictment to society, or our educational system, or even my own poor skills as a teacher. But these are deep seated issues that have no immediate solution, or at least not one that I know of.

What I can say is this: the girls of 3504 are thriving in ways that I have never seen girls/women thrive in a co-educational setting. They are gaining confidence and taking on responsibilities that many of them would concede to the boys on a mixed-gender team. Sure, they will need to work with boys/men someday, but when they get there they will have the skills to go head to head with them and the confidence that goes along with it. I find it surprising that anyone can criticize my actions as "counterproductive". If you don't believe me, you are welcome to come help us mentor 3504 and see for yourself. Or better yet, start your own all-girls team.

I'll finish this post (my first ever on CD) with an attempt to provide some perspective that I have not yet seen in this thread: The world needs more engineers, this is one of the underlying tenets of FIRST. Girls represent a great, under-tapped pool of future engineering talent. We should be doing everything we can to encourage them and to give them safe places to learn how to stretch their engineering wings.

-George

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by (paraphrasing)

Where are all the female rock stars?

Give a smart female the ego of a male counterpart and I think you'll find the rock star in FRC. I only say this because the very poignant female leader of my team pointed this out as something for me personally to improve so I don't intimidate any potential upcoming female engineers who show interest in joining our team. The process of working on my ego in that context has led me to believe that until a specific behavior is directly called out, I seriously doubt that any male (especially an adolescent) can empathize with females that have those types of hurdles to overcome. Ergo, I believe we need to celebrate the all-female teams as much, if not more than, co-ed or all-male teams.

After having done some of our own all-female research with FLL and [FVC] teams, we came to some conclusions which I'll adapt to the current metaphor. They weren't "rock stars" simply because none of them wanted to be rock stars. They wanted to succeed and it seemed to be an intrinsic quality they were after more than the competitive edge. However, there is another team, Einstein's Daughters (all-girl FTC team), who I would say are famous (in FTC) due to their consistency with success in a competitive environment. Perhaps someone could contact them to get their input?

[Jaine Perotti]

Originally Posted by Molten

My point isn't that we are suffering equally by it. My point is that your just adding more differences. Your widening the gap of equal treatment between men and women. Whether it is for one gender's benefit or the other, sexism is sexism. You can't both fight it while promoting it.
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If you were to stamp out all sexism and racism in the world except for women only and minority only teams/scholarships/organizations/whatever, sexism and racism would still exist because these organizations exist.

Running an all-girls team is not sexism. Sexism is the institutionalized (i.e. widespread and prevalent throughout all aspects of our culture) favoring of one gender over another. When looking at the existence of girls-only teams in the wider context of a society which overhwelmingly favors men in STEM fields, they don't do any real harm to men (in a general sense at least*). If sexism ever truly ends someday, there will be no need to have any more all-girl teams... they will simply cease to exist. Your contention that they would linger solely to oppress men is ridiculous. I highly doubt that the people running the all-girls teams are secretly plotting to marginalize all men once women are no longer culturally disadvantaged... in fact, many of the people running those teams are men themselves.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't try to help girls out. I'm just suggesting that you might be better off having after-school activities that promote learning how to use power-tools to all kids from a younger age. If you want, make it mother-daughter nights and father-son nights. Do the same with cooking and other things guys generally avoid. This issue really should be dealt with at the youngest age possible before the child is completely set in their sexist ways.

These are all fine suggestions, there is nothing wrong with them. But I still don't see any harm in girls-only teams. The many positive testimonies in this thread clearly show that they are a powerful tool for bringing more women into STEM fields.

I really don't see this as a means of convincing at all. I mean, I've seen alot of successful people of minorities and none of them have made those around them believe that equal treatment is necessary.
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This one I'm just going to admit I'm confused. How is showing successful women prove they are disadvantaged?
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Women who are successful are poor examples of the sexism because of their success. Instances of women who could do amazing things but were discouraged would be much more compelling.

I for one would feel pretty discouraged if the only news stories about women in STEM fields were about our failures and difficulties. I suppose they would garner some sympathy, but probably not in a good way... i.e. you would probably get a lot of Archie Bunker-esque responses like "oh, those poor, silly wimminz, what do they think they are doing trying to do manly things like math and science? Why do they worry their pretty little heads about trying to get ahead in careers which obviously weren't meant for them?"

On the other hand, seeing more and more positive stories about women making scientific and engineering breakthroughs would probably shock, maybe even change (and at the very least shut up) the Archie Bunkers of the world. It would also be testimony to the success of the programs and scholarships (such as all-girl FIRST teams!) dedicated to helping advance women in STEM. Even more importantly, it would serve as inspiration to the women out there like me who rarely get to hear about women's success in engineering. Trust me, it helps a lot to hear about the success stories of other women... just reading the responses of the other women in this thread has truly been a source of comfort and support for me. Not to say that we shouldn't talk about the problems we face at ALL (it's important to share those too), but I believe it's equally important to share our victories as well as our defeats.

On this one I think you missed my point completely. I'm also not suggesting that the world is perfect on this matter. Sometimes things go unnoticed, but if a worker is discriminating...eventually it will catch up with them. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but at some point there will be repercussions.

You are still living in a dream world, my friend. Trust those who have actually had real-world experience trying to contend with discrimination.

--Jaine

*I'm not saying that they can NEVER hurt men... obviously it would be unfair if there was an all-girls team in a region where there were no other alternative tech-related activities for the boys to participate in... on the other hand, it's not like anyone would be actively stopping someone from starting their own co-ed team in such a region if they wanted one.

[Seth Mallory]

The point of FIRST is to inspire students to learn. Different people work best in indifferent ways. That is the reason teams have different ways that they function. Our team is coed and some of our captains have been girls. Since all the students have to take the same training they all use the machine tools. Our school also has many girls on the local Girl Scouts team. I would like them on our team but if they want to be on the Girl Scouts team that is where they belong. At the regonals some of the teams the girls have minor rolls and do not work with the robot. When asked they respond that they do not work on the robot during build. Many of those girls would be better off on a all girls team just to get the chance to learn. Diffrent teams for diffrent folks.

[Molten]

To Jaine:

"Sexism is the institutionalized (i.e. widespread and prevalent throughout all aspects of our culture) favoring of one gender over another."

dictionary.com makes no reference to the institutionalized part. I guess part of our disagreement is based on a difference of definitions.

"Your contention that they would linger solely to oppress men is ridiculous."

Please read my words before ridiculing them. I didn't suggest once they'd linger to oppress men. Whats more, I've not once suggested they oppress men in the least. Just that they, in themselves, are a form of sexism as long as they have a gender requirement to be a part of the team.

"I for one would feel pretty discouraged if the only news stories about women in STEM fields were about our failures and difficulties."

I completely agree. I'm not suggesting showing these failures and difficulties to little girls. I suggest showing them to their parents in hopes that it would motivate them to raise their kid in a more unisex manner so that one day such failures and difficulties won't have to be faced.

"You are still living in a dream world, my friend. Trust those who have actually had real-world experience trying to contend with discrimination."

Please don't make assumptions about other people's pasts. I've been through discrimination. I was the only guy clarinet player out of 30 for my freshmen year not to mention being severely outnumbered in that respect for the 3 years prior to high school. Often it was regular for the marching band coordinator to not notice me and refer to as a group as "ladies". As you can imagine I was placed in many awkward situations while being the only guy, and when with the other parts of the band I'd always be told how "lucky" I am. They'd make suggestions that were completely inappropriate. I know what its like to go through discrimination. I completely admit that I don't have to deal with this every day of my life as women in professional engineering do. I have however had "real-world experience trying to contend with discrimination".

As you continually reference to my living in a dream world...Yes I dream big. So has most of the people who have had real impact in this world. Martin Luther King Jr is most famous for his "dream" speech. I imagine many people back then thought he lived in a dream world. That was less then 50 years ago today. In the grand scheme, 50 years for a dream world to come to reality...that's pretty fast. Maybe if more people shared my "dream world" we could live in it in another 50 years.

Final message: Please don't put words in my mouth or make false assumptions about my past. I feel you have made great contributions to this thread, but I can't help but read your posts as being rather condescending. You've been through and seen things. We all have. Please post your thoughts without belittling mine in the future.

Thanks,
Jason