Alliance Selection Rules

[Chris is me]

Team 2791 was at the CT Regional this weekend, and coming into Saturday we were in a picking position. We decided to use an iPad as a scouting aide in order to make our list and consolidate notes on teams in something compact and readable. I'd seen this done on a webcast and thought it was a really novel idea.

Late Saturday morning, it was announced that "electronic devices are strictly prohibited during alliance selection". Our team calmly went to the Pit Admin table to talk to someone about this. After pointing out that several regionals had allowed exactly what we were doing before and showing in the rules that there was no prohibition on cell phones or anything of the sort for alliance selection we were told "Well, they don't specifically allow it either so we can make the rules however we want.". Disappointed, we copied our list onto paper and proceeded to miss eliminations anyway.

We were told the intent of the rule is that only the alliance captain can be making the picks, with no outside information. Yet I've seen this happen time and time again with text messages, whiteboards, even shouting from the stands. We've done it before and no one minds. I've seen teams like 1114 use whiteboards. I honestly thought it was common practice.

So:
1. Does this rule exist?
2. Is this a rule decided event by event?

[GaryVoshol]

The GDC specifically allowed it: http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=17137

[EricH]

I think it's decided event-to-event. I've seen it both ways.

And, as we all know, rules that change from event to event are a bad thing.

FWIW, I think they may be trying to stretch <T25> and <T26> to cover alliance selection. That's not a legitimate stretch; the team reps aren't even in the alliance stations... And it can be argued that if the device in question doesn't have it's connection on, it's included in <T26> anyway.

The GDC needs to rule one way or the other. Otherwise, Archimedes captains will be complaining about Newton captains being allowed to use electronic devices during selection... Well, hopefully not that bad.

[Chris is me]

I pulled out the rule book and after I showed them there was no rule, they didn't say they were enforcing T25 or T26 - they agreed with my interpretation that alliance selections are not matches. They just said that because it wasn't in the rulebook, it was their jurisdiction.

I can't remember if I asked to call FIRST HQ - but I think I did and they said it was too late or something. Oh well.

[Nuttyman54]

Incidences like this occurred at DC this year (we were informed on Saturday morning) and on Archimedes last year (we were informed 5 minutes before alliance selections. We were allowed to use whiteboard in DC, but not on Archimedes last year.

We inquired like you did at DC, but received the same answer that since it wasn't in the rule book, the Head Ref had the right to make the call. Before Archimedes I had never seen or heard of any instances where this was the case. I think that FIRST needs to make a clear ruling in the actual game manual so that it is fair and consistent between events.

Some teams have elaborate electronic scouting setups like your iPad, which allow their scouts to quickly re-sort and re-arrange their list based on the changing needs of the alliance, which is not possible through paper means. Teams who have spent time on such a system have the right to know long before the event if they will be allowed to use it, or if their time is better spent making sure their on-field scout has everything they need on paper.

[TEE]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

The GDC specifically allowed it: http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=17137

"There are no rules that prohibit laptops or team collaboration during the alliance selection process. These methods are permitted, however the team is expected to make quick and expeditious decisions in the interest of keeping the process moving."

Looks like they were wrong

[Koko Ed]

I've always kept it to one student on the field and about the only thing I figured wasn't allowed was a cell phone.

[BrendanB]

I wish FIRST would come up with a message to head refs on what is allowed and not allowed. It seems every event has different policies which makes it unfair when the head ref makes a call that the GDC allows.

It just doesn't make sense when this happens. IF whiteboards are allowed I don't see why phones make any difference since they both are providing a number. I have seen so many teams take forever to make a decision when going through their paper data whereas it seems that they think texting prolongs the process.

[Nuttyman54]

Originally Posted by TEE

"There are no rules that prohibit laptops or team collaboration during the alliance selection process. These methods are permitted, however the team is expected to make quick and expeditious decisions in the interest of keeping the process moving."

Looks like they were wrong

Keep in mind that the Q&A is not the rules. Refs may use it as guidelines and base their calls on it, but there is no requirement that they follow the Q&A interpretation. As it stands it's still technically the Head Ref's decision, however shaky that logic may be

That being said, it's likely that if we had known about this Q&A ahead of time we would have brought it to the head ref's attention. Unfortunately this one slipped by us, and we were not anticipating the ruling at DC. I can't speak for anyone at CT who may or may not have known about this Q&A.

At this point I'm really hoping the GDC sees fit to address this in the next rule update so that it is consistent from here on out.

[flyingcrayons]

at NJ, i took my phone out during alliance selection to check a text from a teammate (unrelated to alliance selection, but it was very important nonetheless). i also was able to communicate with a team mentor about my selection.. i would have picked that team regardless, but i felt better getting approval lol. at DC, they explicitly said that you couldnt use electronic devices, and i didnt. ive never had problems with this at NJ, or even Philly. it seems weird that different regionals have different rules. seems shady to me. i think FIRST is going to have to make a definitive statement about this before it gets out of hand

[Tyler Hicks]

During alliance selection, I have used my cell phone to text fellow members in the stands who had other scouting data. I've also used a laptop to sort scouting data. I figured it was perfectly legal, I don't see what harm it would cause.

[XaulZan11]

I find the lack of consistency frustrating. At Wisconsin our representative asked before alliance selections if he could recieve/send texts on his cell phone and said he could. When it was time to make our second selection, he was told to put the phone away by the MC (not sure what grounds he has to make that decision). At Midwest the represenatives were told they couldn't use phones right before alliance selection; thankfully we planned ahead this time.

If they are concerned that cell phones, laptops, Ipads will cause too much of a delay, how about giving teams 5 minutes to make their selection? If they don't make the selection in time, they are given the highest ranked team.

With whiteboards, teams shouting, hand signals, its just too hard to deny teams communication.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Tyler Hicks

During alliance selection, I have used my cell phone to text fellow members in the stands who had other scouting data. I've also used a laptop to sort scouting data. I figured it was perfectly legal, I don't see what harm it would cause.

If the phone was ok then why not just be allowed to have a full team down there with you to help you make the pick? Personally I don't think phones should not be allowed on the field during matches (apparently a coach on one of the teams at GTR was actually talking on his phone in the middle of a match) or during alliance section period.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

If the phone was ok then why not just be allowed to have a full team down there with you to help you make the pick? Personally I don't think phones should not be allowed on the field during matches (apparently a coach on one of the teams at GTR was actually talking on his phone in the middle of a match) or during alliance section period.

I really think the reason that whole teams are disallowed is for space reasons. What's the problem with having more than one person decide something for a team?

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I really think the reason that whole teams are disallowed is for space reasons. What's the problem with having more than one person decide something for a team?

I agree it is kinda like match strategy but even harder since things change fast!

I wonder what a head ref would do if someone broke a no white board rule? Held up the number as it was their turn!