Should this have been allowed?

[Timz3082]

Hello, I am the team leader of team 3082, and I have a question about a situation that occurred during a semifinals match causing our team to loose. During the last 40 seconds of the match, we had completed on logo and put up two of the three tubes needed for the logo on our left side, all we needed was the square. We had that tube and were attempting to place it and while we were releasing it, a tube thrown by the human player knocked it out of the claw and away from the peg making us unable to score the piece in the final amount of time and still deploy the minibot, so we were unable to complete the logo. After the match we talked with the head ref who said "It was inadvertent" which is why they did not call the team on it and issue a red card. But aren't all penalties and red cards inadvertent? The strange thing here is that this directly caused us to looses the tiebreaker match and not make it to finals. This was heartbreaking for us, and we were wondering if this ruling was correct or should have been looked over differently. It is apparent that first by all means wants to prevent human actions on the field from preventing scoring as shown by tubes which land on the tower. Is there anything first can do for us? This was very sad for the team to be the alliance captain of the 3rd alliance, yet not win any awards. I know this might not make total sense, but I was wondering what everyone else thought the ruling should be on such a devastating move.

[,4lex S.]

Can you cite a rule in the manual or team updates that states this is an illegal action, even if done purposefully?

If not, it was a completely legal move.

[Brian Ha]

If I am correct it's perfectly legal to throw tubes at an opposing alliances robot. Thus causing then to drop such tube. It is illegal in the same regard to throw a tube to knock a tube off the wall. Although I'm not condoning this because it's un gracious.

[Duke461]

Unfortunately the calls like that have been extremely different throughout the regionals. There is no rule that specifically forbids this (please correct me if im wrong), but it is clearly some sort of intentional non-gracious professionalism act, at least from the story, since the opposing human player is on the same side as your robot in the zone. 461 has gone through even worse luck than that, so i know how you feel.
Good luck in the future,
Duke
P.S. The only rule you could bring up is intentionally trying to hurt another robot.

[Timz3082]

Originally Posted by ,4lex S.

Can you cite a rule in the manual or team updates that states this is an illegal action, even if done purposefully?

If not, it was a completely legal move.

That is the issue, there is no rule against it, but it seems like there should have been because of the actual use of human feeders. There is however a rule against human feeders de-scoring game pieces, of which our piece was "almost scored since it was touching our peg and robot at the same time.

[Elizabeth Waters]

Interestingly enough, after one human player at Lone Star inadvertantly struck a tube from out gripper while trying to hang, because the refs saw this as completely legal, it became a game strategy for teams trying to stop tube hanging. Though I don't agree with it for it's not truly in the spirit of the game, it is completely legal.

[SenorZ]

That's some good aim and distance if it was intentional. At the LA regional I saw some throwers that looked like they'd practiced their technique for weeks...and they still threw about 10% of their tubes out of bounds.

[Duke461]

Originally Posted by SenorZ

That's some good aim and distance if it was intentional. At the LA regional I saw some throwers that looked like they'd practiced their technique for weeks...and they still threw about 10% of their tubes out of bounds.

If team A is trying to score in their zone, then Human player on team B is right next to them....

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Brian Ha

If I am correct it's perfectly legal to throw tubes at an opposing alliances robot. Thus causing then to drop such tube. It is illegal in the same regard to throw a tube to knock a tube off the wall. Although I'm not condoning this because it's un gracious.

Yes, because playing the game in a legal manner is ungracious. Next thing you will tell me that using my robot in the manner of a battering ram is un-gp. You knew the rules and by not designing your gripper to take a hit you decided that you would take the risk. If I call your bluff it isn't un-gp it is just good strategy.

I've said it before and I will say it again, if I am on the field across from you and find a way of winning a match that is within the rules I will take it. If this means that my strategy incidentally results in damaging your gripper because it was not designed robustly enough then so be it. Will I help you rebuild the gripper? Sure. Were my actions in any way "un-gp"? Not in the slightest. I'm not going to pull a punch on any team. I think going easy on anyone is disrespectful to them.

[Nemo]

There is nothing FIRST would do about that situation. A referee's call is final.

Your team showed up to the 10000 Lakes competition and did a great job. Our team played with you in the qualifiers, and your people were great alliance partners. I'm sure that your match could have gone either way, and I think both alliances deserved to advance to the next round. When alliances are closely matched, that's part of the deal, and one does not need to feel bad about oneself when the luck doesn't come through. Having said that, it's also true that any team that loses a close match could have won it comfortably (even with some poor luck) if they had built their robot that much better.

But none of that is the reason I wanted to respond to your post. I would invite you to look at this endeavor in a different way. A lack of awards does not equal failure. The whole difficult process of this competition is the important thing here. Running a bunch of students and mentors through that gauntlet is what is changing the world for the better, not the act of bringing home a trophy.

[IndySam]

This is the only rule governing the situation and it only talks about scoring on a opponents peg or descoring, nothing about the feeder interfering with the act of scoring.

G39> ROBOTS and FEEDERS may not SCORE on their opponent's PEGS or descore their opponent‟s GAME PIECES, or interfere with their opponent‟s TOWERS. Violation: PENALTY plus RED CARD.

I would bet that if the GDC is made aware of teams intentionally interfering with a robot in the act of scoring they would make it a penalty.

[nighterfighter]

At Peachtree this was specifically clarified as a LEGAL strategy- HOWEVER, if that Human Player throws a tube, it bounces off of our robot, and DESCORES one of our hung tubes, they get a penalty. (I believe a red card)

[BHS_STopping]

This Q&A response should help answer your question. Particularly, read the GDC's answer to question number 3:

3) There is no penalty unless the action interferes with MINIBOT DEPLOYMENT per Rule <G24>.

It is permissible to throw a game piece so that it hits another alliance's robot, unless that robot is deploying a minibot. All other situations appear to be okay though. Personally I think it's a little ungracious, but one should probably account for such things when designing their mechanism to handle tubes, especially when there are many more high-impact events that could cause you to drop a tube inadvertently.

[pfreivald]

As far as I can tell, this was 100% legal.

[gblake]

Folks,

I never cease to be amazed that so many people want to substitute their opinions about GP-ness, Spirit-of-the-Game, and similar nebulous concepts for the rulebook. I certainly don't.

Instead I embrace the rules; and I consider following them meticulously to be the very embodiment of those sorts of concepts.

If the rule authors make statements outside of the rules that contradict or appear to contradict what the rules allow, then I come down firmly on the side of those statements being either mistakes, or being interesting but irrelevant; and not on the side of treating them as new rules.

If those statements made outside the rules were new/different rules, then they would actually be rules, and not comments associated with the rules.

I can sympathize with the OP asking their question, for the sake of confirming that they didn't overlook something when they did their mental post-mortem review of the situation.

It's the rest of the folks (and its not the same people each time) that make me scratch my head.

Dear OP - What occured wasn't illegal. Referees use the rules to call the game. The rules determine what is legal/illlegal. What would you want a referee to do? Decide to add a rule?

Recently at a robotics tournament I commented to someone that following the law (the rules) doesn't always result in justice; but, that I believed the alternative leads to worse outcomes. That comment might apply in this situation.

Blake