A plead to FIRST, anyone else agree?

[Seathan93]

As a senior who has spent 4 years on a FIRST team, I was a bit disappointed with FIRST this year. I realize I may not have been a part of the program as long as some mentors, but that doesn't mean I haven't seen FIRST evolve at all.

Here are some of the issues I'm having with FIRST, and I'd like to know who agrees with me, and who doesn't:

FIRST, (ahh...the standard pun) In my opinion, FIRST has become extremely heavy handed with the "real meaning of FIRST." I completely understand, "it's not about the robots," but that doesn't mean you need to state that every five minutes. 4 years ago when I joined the team, everything was about Gracious Professionalism, being professional, competitive, but gracious to others and cooperative. That felt enough for me. The competition was fun, my team was extremely competitive, but after an entire build season preparing for the competition, why shouldn't they be? Yes, the gracious part lacked here and there, nothing major, but in the heat of the competition, the competitive side took over a bit. But that was ok! After the competition, life returned to normal, whether we moved on to the championship, or returned home exhausted after a long season.

Then...there was coopertition. As if Gracious Professionalism weren't enough, FIRST brought out Coopertition (competition and cooperation). Basically everything Gracious Professionalisms embodied, but much more explicit. On top of that, the games were changed to make it such that the robots who scored the highest, did not necessarily rank the highest. I understood the concept, help other teams out, get games where the score is more even, and then everyone wins. But, in the middle of a competition, there are times where even helping another team out, will not change how they play on the field. The rules of the games have even become more strict, since coopertition has come out. I won't get into that now, that's another point, but FIRST has killed some of the innovation by restricting how you can play a game to such an extreme, and red carding anything slightly competitive.

My main point here, is that it's killing the competition. After build season, the competition should be fun, it should be the place where all 6 weeks of hard work can be vented in the competitive spirit. Yes, it should be done in a gracious way, but the competitive side of FIRST shouldn't be removed, that's half of what makes it fun.

I think FIRST needs to back off a bit on the speeches about how it's not about the robots. That's a good way to start off the season, but afterwards, especially at the competetion, after the 8th time they mention how it's not about the robots I'm thinking "I THINK WE GOT IT, IT'S NOT ABOUT THE ROBOTS, LET'S GET ON TO THE COMPETITION!"

I think FIRST needs to bring back some of the competitive aspects of previous competitions. They need to accept, 4, 5 weeks, even further, into the build season, that some teams may have found ways to play the game they hadn't thought of. I agree, if it's a cheap way to win (such as winning by red carding the opponent...which could be removed if the red cards were toned down), then yes that needs to be addressed, but if it's just an alternate way, it's an innovation, that's part of the competition. Teams will formulate ways to defend against it.

SECOND.

Robotics is nerdy. We all know it. Yes, not every person on robotics is your stereotypical nerd, and to be honest, it's a silly stereotype, but you're not attracting anyone to FIRST by claiming you're not nerdy. Everyone knows robotics is nerdy. It's just part of life. Yes, I get the "change the culture," but you're not going to change it by being in denial.

For the first time in my 4 years on FIRST, during the first week of build season, I was almost ashamed to be associated with the program. I think we all know what I'm talking about, and if you don't, then thankfully you probably didn't see the video. The splash page on usfirst, with a video of robotics footage overlay-ed by Will.I.Am's 2 sentence quote from kick off played over and over again.

Now, I appreciate what FIRST was trying to accomplish, but to be honest, that was by far the most ridiculous thing I had ever seen. I think I died a bit inside when I saw that video.

If you want to change the culture, great, but you're going about it wrong. Stop trying to deny that robotics is nerdy. We all know it is, and, presumably, we're all fine with it, I know I really couldn't care less. It really does not spell self confidence, something that FIRST needs if you want to attract people to FIRST, to deny that it's nerdy. Hell, even mentioning that it's nerdy, even if you say you're not, comes across as nerdy.

Combining parts one and two for a moment I'd like to say, the "true message of FIRST" is great. It is fantastic, and it's good to know it's there. That being said, it's a great message for sponsors, mentors, and parents. You're not going to get students interested in robotics (especially if you want it to be taken as seriously as a sport) by constantly saying the message of FIRST and by making the competitions less competitive.

THIRD.

The games. I loved breakaway. Not so much the game, I would give my favorite game of my 4 years to Overdrive, but because of the philosophy behind it. It was getting robotics to be more spectator friendly. I agree that LOGOMOTION was somewhat spectator friendly, the more logos, and the more lights on the minibot towers, the more points, but it was seriously lacking.

I felt there was something seriously wrong with FIRST this year when I learned we were being awarded points to put up shameless advertising for FIRST, and the more we advertised the more we were awarded. Something about that just felt wrong from the very outset. Mix in with that the politics about FTC (by the way, the minibot aspect of the game was the only bit I got excited about at kick off) and all that, led to a very wrong gut feeling. In fact, going back to the rules bit, they did everything in their power to make the advertising as streamlined as possible, putting in a 30pt penalty for pinning, and making defense hard to accomplish without a red card.


In summation, in case you didn't want to read that block of text, or my ideas were a bit too spread out.

1. The "true" message of FIRST is great, but it does not need to be repeated 200000 times.
2. Go back to more competition, you're beginning to lack in the competitive part of coopertition.
3. Enough of the shameless advertising. FIRST is not about the robots, great, but it's not about the politics either, nor is it about FIRST, it's about the future and inspiring our generation, and the next one.
4. Robotics is nerdy. The sooner that is accepted, and embraced, the sooner FIRST can confidently attract others to the program. Nothing says "nerds, beware" like a sign saying "hehehe, it's not nerdy"
5. You were on a good track with the "spectator friendly" game breakaway, continue on that track.

Those are my opinions, feel free to disagree with me, or agree. I hope I'm not the only one who has noticed these aspects.

-Ian

[Grim Tuesday]

I agree with your points in many areas. I should take some time to write a lengthy response later, but for now, I just want to say, you hit the nail right on the head.

[gblake]

Smithers - Release the hounds....

This should be an interesting thread to watch.

Blake
PS: I think my opinions about most of this have been liberally spread across other threads over the last few years. So I look forward to reading some new thoughts and won't inflict my retreads on you.

I completely agree with #3! Though this year's game wasn't bad, Breakaway was my favorite! Not only is it a fun game to watch, but it was more organized, easier to observe, and most importantly, relatable to people not in the competition! When we played Breakaway, the FIRST thing that we saw, and liked, were the bumps separating the field into three separate areas. It was a lot easier to see your robot, and your opponent's robot, since most of the time there were just 2 or 3 robots per section. This year, we'd waste whole seconds (A long time in an FRC match), figuring out where our robot was in the huge heap of robots from both alliances. Also, Breakaway was robot soccer! Tell me one person in the world who doesn't know what soccer is! From the spectator's point of view, as soon as you saw the field, and the way the robots played, you knew it was robot soccer! There were soccer balls, goals, and if you looked at the right time, robots playing defense! It was easy to understand, so naturally anybody non-robotics related understood, and liked the game! This year, everyone I brought to watch had no idea what was going on! They didn't know what the game was about, they had no idea where our robot was in the moshpit of madness, and were totally confused about the way the game was played, the scoring, and the penalties. Just a note to FIRST (If you're reading this), while all of your games are exciting and innovating for the people playing in them, you have to remember the spectators who know nothing about what we are doing.

[synth3tk]

I agree with your first two points, every character and word.

The third, not-so-much. I don't see anything wrong with incorporating some branding into the game. My problem with the game is pretty much summed up by SuperNerd's post immediately above mine.

[adriaf]

I am also a 4 year member of an FRC team, and yes, this year's game is somewhat poorly organized. Within 5 years, the same concept of the two games (rack and roll, logomotion) were brought up. Only 5 years. It just seems too close. And quite unfair to those teams who started in 08 (like us) compared to those who were here before 07. Breakaway and Overdrive were, hands down, one of the best games. It was incredibly well organized, well thought of, the ratio of points to penalties. I thought FIRST would come up with something better this year since it is the 20th anniversary. I'm wondering if the movie directors (the ones from the GDC last year) helped with this years game. I heard one was from Cirque du Soleil.

[Seathan93]

The third, not-so-much. I don't see anything wrong with incorporating some branding into the game. My problem with the game is pretty much summed up by SuperNerd's post immediately above mine.

While the advertising did annoy my a bit, I would have to agree that SuperNerd's post is much more the problem I intended to stress, I got a bit caught up in the advertising bit.

[PayneTrain]

I was just annoyed to find out FIRST in 2010 was apparently shocked that an inherently-defensive game was low scoring, so now rules deducting points need to be made so teams can score more points.

It's mindboggling to look at old robots my team had, where there were no bumpers: just unbendable, lock-tight, well-crafted, high quality machine robustness keeping the bot together. In fact, while the 07 and 08 robots are dead and gone, the 01, and drive trains of 00, 02, 03-2, and 04-6 are still intact. The endgames required ridiculous challenges.

2010 was a flashback to the true engineering challenges that FIRST required. the 07, 09, and 11 competitions don't require teams to do anything relatively astonishing. I will admit Lunacy was my favorite, but in the end, it was basketball-tag on the "moon." It wasn't tough to figure out like navigating through a short tunnel or over a hill, or possessing a ball without truly "holding it." 07 required teams to use a rather stereotypical gripper to achieve the main goal, as we do in 2011.

Will we get a true engineering challenge in 2012? Will we get a ranking system that makes sense? Will I do cartwheels at the Virginia Regional? All this and more next year.

[ahollenbach]

I guess I don't have much knowledge as a rookie to FIRST (although I've heard Phil Szymanowski go on and on about it), but I disagree with many of your points, and in general (sorry for the massive generalization) with all people who make open letters, and pleas, etc. If you aren't having fun, you aren't doing it right. The competitions account for (assuming you compete three times in a season) a mere 9 days. Build season (and the hype leading up to kickoff) lasts nearly 2 months. Enough, though. Let me address each point.

1. The "true" message of FIRST is great, but it does not need to be repeated 200000 times.
It's a tiny price to pay for having the opportunity to compete with the upcoming brightest minds in the world. Four years ago, I would never have dreamed of the exposure I've received, developing a professional website, designing a 150 pound robot, and learning to create accurate CAD drawings of it. The competitions are immense, and so if they want to spend a few minutes out of the three days to mention their slogans, they can.

2. Go back to more competition, you're beginning to lack in the competitive part of coopertition.
I don't even know where this comes from. I see robots out there that can do incredible things, built by veteran and rookie teams alike. The competitions have me on the edge of my seat, whether in person, or seeing it all on a tiny computer screen. This year, just like many of the past years, has been highly competitive. In fact, it is one of the first years that teams are competing to hit the score barrier, which just furthers the competition. Competition hasn't gone anywhere; it's still thriving in the FIRST regionals.
In terms of cooperation, that's how the real world works. You learn to cooperate to compete against your opponents when they're at their best. And yes, people have been complaining about minibot schematic stealing, but FIRST couldn't have anticipated that. They aren't perfect.

3. Enough of the shameless advertising. FIRST is not about the robots, great, but it's not about the politics either, nor is it about FIRST, it's about the future and inspiring our generation, and the next one.
Why? FIRST has brought wonderful engineering experience to more than a quarter of a million kids from all walks of life, all around the world. They need to get their name out there, so more people see it as an interesting thing to do. You can still inspire a generation - in fact, you will be reaching a larger audience in the next generation. Also, what politics do you speak of?
On another note, the "shameless advertising"? Let's not even call it that. Instead of the circular gamepieces from Rack 'N' Roll, FIRST stepped up the challenge by bringing in different shapes, and the logo bonus keeps the driver on his game. It also creates an awesome back-and-forth nail biting when two excellent alliances go head to head. Don't believe me? Watch footage from the quarter-finals at Florida, where both alliances went past the 80 point mark in all three matches.

4. Robotics is nerdy. The sooner that is accepted, and embraced, the sooner FIRST can confidently attract others to the program. Nothing says "nerds, beware" like a sign saying "hehehe, it's not nerdy"
OK, I'll agree with you a little there. The Will.i.am thing was a bit overplayed, but all in all, their point was not dumb. Robotics isn't all nerdy, and FIRST is not all robotics. Half of our team also learns about finances, professional presentations, web design, and many other core skills that really have nothing to do with cRios and pneumatic cylinders. So, the not-as-nerdy kids could join that aspect of FIRST (which is equally as important). But who's to say building robots has to be nerdy? Yes, it takes smarts, and interest in robotics, but are all engineers nerdy? Is it nerdy to know how to weld or use a milling machine? Not really.

5. You were on a good track with the "spectator friendly" game breakaway, continue on that track.
I can't speak to strongly, except that I've seen many videos from the past 4-5 years' games, and I have to say that LogoMotion is one of the most interesting games that FIRST has thought up. Not only does it address the veteran teams with a challenge - hanging the top row quickly and efficiently, but it allows rookie teams to also be competitive, using a defensive/minibot emphasis. Aside from the all around approach to game design, actually watching games are a thrill. Seeing logos being hung doesn't take away from the interest factor of the game at all.

In conclusion, this is an awesome program, an awesome game, and an awesome experience. Whatever "complaints" you might have aren't that important in the grand scheme of things, where you are getting a head start on your college and professional career.

Originally Posted by ahollenbach

If you aren't having fun, you aren't doing it right.

We never said we are not having fun! Every FIRST competition is fun! What I have been saying (and others), is that it doesn't seem as fun for the audience! WE love FIRST, because we know all about it, and the great things it has done for us! Everyone else, our spectators, don't know this! They haven't felt the greatness of FIRST, the fun in the building season, and the experience gained from being on a FIRST team! THEY don't know that what we're doing now will be saving lives, and innovating the future! All they know is there are a bunch of nerds in one building playing with robots! They don't know anything else! But that's the vision of FIRST! We are here not only to learn and educate people, but to enlighten the world of this "New Cool" that we're doing. How can we expect them to understand what FIRST is doing, when they can't understand what WE are doing? For my team, Breakaway introduced the rest of our school to robotics. We showed off our robots before, but not until the robot-soccer like game of Breakaway did our school, and the community around us, realize what great things we are doing. If we incorporate robotics into popular, well-known activities in society, then everyone else will get interested!

This is just my $00.02 on this topic.

[TEE]

Originally Posted by adriaf

I am also a 4 year member of an FRC team, and yes, this year's game is somewhat poorly organized. Within 5 years, the same concept of the two games (rack and roll, logomotion) were brought up. Only 5 years. It just seems too close. And quite unfair to those teams who started in 08 (like us) compared to those who were here before 07. Breakaway and Overdrive were, hands down, one of the best games. It was incredibly well organized, well thought of, the ratio of points to penalties. I thought FIRST would come up with something better this year since it is the 20th anniversary. I'm wondering if the movie directors (the ones from the GDC last year) helped with this years game. I heard one was from Cirque du Soleil.

I totally agree with your point about the games, and I would go slightly further to say that Lunacy was a better game as well. The game is simple: put orbit balls in your opponents' trailers and defend your own trailer.

As for logomotion, the moment they brought out the tubes, I just about cried... tubes are difficult to handle, not all that durable, and in all honesty, what fun is there in playing with an inflated tube (without water)?

OP: I would also agree that the true message is getting repeated far too often, but also that the message is straying from what it was when I was a freshman. It seems less focused on innovating, competing and learning and more focused on expanding FIRST... and to be honest, it seems to me like FIRST is playing politics this year more than ever: "don't just say you're on a robotics team, say you're on a FIRST robotics team", the minibot FTC vs. VEX debacle, and the fact that the best way to score points is to make FIRST logos -__-

(btw, my favorite game was Overdrive as well, followed by Breakaway)

[Akash Rastogi]

What the heck is up with so many kids and adults if FIRST being obsessed with the word nerd. Nerdlove is not something to be proud of, the fact that you're so proud of acting like FIRST is a little cult of nerds is so frustrating and annoying.

The best mentors I know in FRC are intelligent people, what the heck constitutes them as nerds? The majority of the students on Team 11 are varisty and junior varsity athletes. Our captains are also athletes. I can name a lot of teams who are the same way. The kids on 3553 are mostly from the football team as well.

What do you really even know about other teams and other people?

So really, this pisses me off (as you call tell by this post).

Have fun with treating FRC like a little cult of nerds.

[RoboTigers1796]

I say, we all come together and boycott until they promise a new never before seen exciting game that makes the playing field even for all teams veterans and rookies..

[mwtidd]

I will post in full tomorrow but for now. Logomotion really isn't spectator friendlym the last game where spectators could follow the whole match was 04 and maybe 07. The key didderence is goals in the center of the field. By spreading. Out the goals it makes it hard to figure out who is scoring and who is winning. Breakaway had the same problem. It works in sports cause there is one ball. First shoiuld consider the seven rule when designing games. The human mind can only process 7 pieces of information. Logomotion is impi
Ossible to follow to the untrained mindm same thing in breakaway.

Sorry for all the fat thumbing

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

What the heck is up with so many kids and adults if FIRST being obsessed with the word nerd. Nerdlove is not something to be proud of, the fact that you're so proud of acting like FIRST is a little cult of nerds is so frustrating and annoying.

The best mentors I know in FRC are intelligent people, what the heck constitutes them as nerds? The majority of the students on Team 11 are varisty and junior varsity athletes. Our captains are also athletes. I can name a lot of teams who are the same way. The kids on 3553 are mostly from the football team as well.

What do you really even know about other teams and other people?

So really, this pisses me off (as you call tell by this post).

Have fun with treating FRC like a little cult of nerds.

And you're saying the term "Nerd" is to be taken offensively? To me and my team, "Nerd" happens to be a compliment! It is used to mean respect! One day, "Nerds" will be ruling this world! Why are you acting like it's a bad thing? It's like a a jock saying their not a jock! And for the record, we had a member on our team who was varsity captain of the football team, and he had the word "Nerd" specifically printed on his uniform. I don't see how you can think being a "Nerd" is bad. I can't speak for everybody, but I'm proud to be a "Nerd"!!!