Alliance Selection Rules

[Brandon Holley]

It seems like theres 2 separate issues we are debating here.

The first is the general inconsistency of the rules event to event regarding whats allowed on the field for selections. I myself have seen everything from whiteboards, cell phones and iThings to shouting, hand signals, and even interpretive dance. To me, if you can communicate to your teammate who is selecting, then what is the difference how they get the information. Whether its because I yelled it across the arena, showed some sort of hand signal or sent a text/email...whats the difference.

The other fundamental issue is whether people should be communicating with the alliance selector at all. On that note, I think its somewhat unfair to leave all of that pressure of alliance selections to one student. Sure, we leave the driving of the robot and operation of the arm etc to one student, but collectively the drive team operates the robot, the burden can be shared. Being on the field, under the lights, with a microphone in your face, with hundreds of people screaming random team numbers at you and the pressure of choosing your alliance for your entire team, I'm ok with letting these people get some assistance.

-Brando

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

Unfortunately some teams put either their driver or team captain who has had no interfacing with the scouts/data on the field for selections just because of their role.

Teams put a lot of emphasis on picking the right individuals to be on the drive team. Why would they not put similar priority on the very important role of Student Representative?

I have never waited on a text. I have even waited more time on a captain or two team alliance spending 5 minutes looking through a piece of paper to make a pick. This year at GSR there was an incident where an unprepared captain was told to put their phone away and then had to stare at the screen for both their first a second picks as they had no idea. Another thing is some teams don't prepare in their last few matches as the rankings are finalized and teams slip up into pick position.

Would this process have been faster if the person in question was able to call into the stands? I doubt it. Many chefs make muddled stew.

The alliance selection process is a linchpin of FIRST. Perhaps the most important thing that happens at any event. Everybody's eyes, whether they be from teammates, judges, current or prospective sponsors, are trained on the student reps. They should be clever and articulate enough to be able to make a decision by themselves. Anything else is embarassing.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by Taylor

Teams put a lot of emphasis on picking the right individuals to be on the drive team. Why would they not put similar priority on the very important role of Student Representative?

We put a tremendous amount of importance on who will be choosing our alliance if given the opportunity. It's still a tremendous responsibility in a very intense environment.

-Brando

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Taylor

Teams put a lot of emphasis on picking the right individuals to be on the drive team. Why would they not put similar priority on the very important role of Student Representative?

Would this process have been faster if the person in question was able to call into the stands? I doubt it. Many chefs make muddled stew.

I do not know why a team would not send someone prepared to the field. The fact is it is happening. I gave our team captain a list of the top 20 scorers and a list of how many points havebeen scored by each team.

Yes, it probably would have been faster if he called the stands.

[Zuelu562]

I really agree with Brandon's post; the consistency in both legal methods of communication to the team representative and the policing of those methods should be addressed in the manual, or at least generally noted and given to the event's staff.

A simple line, rule or even a blue box regarding legal methods of communication during alliance selections would probably do a great deal fix this problem.

From the tone of my post, you can tell I wholeheartedly agree with allowing the alliance selector to receive information from outside of the field area (not necessarily out of the venue mind you, AKA 3G connection). I've been the representative myself twice, once at BattleCry10 and this year at BAE/GSR. It's a hard job, lights, the entire venue looking at you, and a microphone in your face can be very intimidating, and you only say (at least) one sentence and a number! Having something, even a single piece of paper with 7 or eight hardly-legible numbers scribbled on it makes it easier (trust me). Having anything more is just gravy and if the selector finds it easier, let if be.

Remember GP in this scenario. If you're accessing say, TheBlueAlliance, during alliance selection when it is your turn, that's something I am against.

[The Lucas]

All volunteers (refs, inspectors, emcees, etc..) should strive to enforce all rules consistently and correctly. There is no rule that prohibits electronic or communication devices during alliance selection (Q&A has said so regarding laptops), so to ban them is both incorrect and inconsistent. Only venues-specific rules (power tools in the pit) should be different in same week events, and this is not a venue-specific rule.

With that being said, it is important that everyone makes the the picks they want in a timely fashion. While a "draft clock" might be fun, I think it would put more stress on some reps that are already overstressed. When the Emcee asks for your selection you should not be waiting on communication, you should be ready (text messaging can actually help with this since they can be easily exchanged before your turn). It might take a few seconds to make another pick in the event of a decline.

This is my suggestion for making picks. Every representative (not just captains) have a paper list even if it just a backup to a electronic version of the list. Use the list to make your first pick. Communication before the pick only to confirm remaining teams on the list or late breaking info like Team XXXX broke in their last match (due to time constraints you usually have to make your list before the last round of matches). If you are AC8 you need to also be ready to make your second pick without revaluation (the down side of being AC8). All other AC should communicate with their first pick rep and their scouting team (via text message) to determine what you need in a 2nd pick based on the capabilities of your alliance (do we need another minibot?) and your matchup (we face Team XXXX so we need Team YYYY to play D). There is no way you could accurately predict all the scenarios that play out during the alliance selection so you have to adjust your 2nd pick accordingly. Stop all communication once the pick before you is announced (communication should be in the form of lists of 3-5 picks so you can adjust to that pick before you). Take a deep breath and announce your 2nd pick clearly when the Emcee asks.

[JohnBoucher]

There is always a driver meeting that could include instructions on how the alliance selection process will take place. This puts the info out for all teams. If a ban on tablet computers, white boards exists, then that is the time to inform the teams, not late Saturday AM.

[synth3tk]

Originally Posted by JohnBoucher

There is always a driver meeting that could include instructions on how the alliance selection process will take place. This puts the info out for all teams. If a ban on tablet computers, white boards exists, then that is the time to inform the teams, not late Saturday AM.

IF FIRST doesn't make a global ruling (which I think would be the best solution), then at the very least, what John suggested should be enforced. Yes, it'd still suck not to be able to use your iDevice or laptop, but at least you'd know about it well ahead of time, and can make the appropriate changes by Saturday morning/afternoon.

[Vikesrock]

I agree that this is two separate issue being discussed.

Regarding this year, I hope we see consistent enforcement of the rules (or lack thereof) in all Week 6 events and Championship Divisions.

Regarding what I would like to see for alliance selections in the future, I would like to see some borrowing from sports here. Give each team a pick clock and when the clock runs out other alliances can jump ahead and make their picks. I'd say maybe 45 seconds for the first round and a decline adds 20 seconds to your clock. After the first 8 picks, have a 2 minute pause for the alliances to confer, then go through the second round at a lower clock, maybe 30 seconds.

I would let teams communicate however they want to whomever they want. If they don't get their pick in within their allotted clock because they are waiting on communication it's their loss.

[Grim Tuesday]

Originally Posted by Trent B

And every team in the top 15 really needs a list. This year 10,000 lakes had a bunch of teams below 8th seed as alliance captain and when we reached the 7th seed the representative had no idea what to do and lacked a list, granted it was a rookie team IIRC, but it still shows the importance of preparedness.

In reality, all teams should make a list. If your picked, then you can tell who picked you complements your robot.

On another thing said earlier in this thread (sorry, I dont have a quote), the Q&A is considered a supplement to the rules, unless it directly contradicts it, in which case, one of the two will be updated, usually by the next team update. If it isn't, then FIRST HQ takes precedence at the regional. In other words, Q&A overrules the head ref.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

In other words, Q&A overrules the head ref.

Another confusion is that I'm not sure who makes the decision. Would it be the head ref that makes this decision, our would it be the regional cordinator or the announcer? I don't believe head refs have any say in awards and I get the feeling that alliance selection is somewhere in between matches and awards. I just don't know the inner-working of regionals...

[George A.]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

Another confusion is that I'm not sure who makes the decision. Would it be the head ref that makes this decision, our would it be the regional cordinator or the announcer? I don't believe head refs have any say in awards and I get the feeling that alliance selection is somewhere in between matches and awards. I just don't know the inner-working of regionals...

There's a bunch of "head honchos" that could be responsible for making this decision. There is always 1 or 2 event managers (usually from Show Ready Events) that oversee everything to make sure timing is on schedule.

There is also the Head Ref that could make the decision, since they are the one that rules their field with an iron fist (it's arguable that alliance selection isn't in their jurisdiction)

So there are several outlets that this call could be made from, it's just up to FIRST to make a ruling once and for all that all events have to abide by.

[Ether]

Originally Posted by Nuttyman54

Keep in mind that the Q&A is not the rules. Refs may use it as guidelines and base their calls on it, but there is no requirement that they follow the Q&A interpretation.

From the wording of Team Update #21 it sure sounds like the GDC considers Q&A answers to be authoritative.

[TEE]

Originally Posted by Ether

From the wording of Team Update #21 it sure sounds like the GDC considers Q&A answers to be authoritative.

Yeah... update 21 clears this up http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...pdate%2021.pdf

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

I don't really want to continue to talk about what happened, but since you asked. As the 2nd alliance, after the 6th (or so) alliance made their 2nd selection, we texted our representative (who also had a list) 5 teams in order. The alliance captain wanted a team that wasn't on that list of 5, so our representive texted back "what about XXXXX". I believe we were in the process of texting back when it was our alliance's turn to pick. So, long story short, we were working on the pick before it was our turn, but it was just one of those tough situations that take time. If anyone has any suggestions on how we could have been more efficient, I'm interested in hearing them.

You could have simply given the total list to the student representative on the field, with any needed notes and categorizations, rather than keeping your brain trust off-field with all the information. Then your student representative would have known about that team and what to do in that situation without having to spend time texting back and forth.

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

In other words, Q&A overrules the head ref.

No, it doesn't.