Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?

[Kims Robot]

Originally Posted by sithmonkey13

False: 1178, D.u.R.T. is primarily from an all boys Catholic high school (De Smet Jesuit High School) but we allow girls in from the other high schools that do not have teams but want to participate. Are there less girls than guys? Yes (3 girls this year on a ~30 member team).

Thats pretty cool! Im glad to hear that. I know in general (mostly for liability), most teams only allow students from their own schools as has been pointed out. However, there are always exceptions, and I guess I should have added the words "In general" to my statement Glad to see an all boys school allowing girls to participate!

There are always exceptions... 1511 has had students from other schools, one of the first of which was a girl who came to our team because we had some extra seats to attend a few competitions our rookie year and offered them to local teams. When we met this girl, she told us that her mentor had told her that she should stick to their spirit and chairmans teams because she was a girl & a cheerleader. When she really wanted to do the engineering work. She was frustrated, and ended up joining our team. We also "adopted" the students from team 73 one year when they lost their sponsorship. Its a bit of a headache to work out the liability & insurance stuff, but it can be worth it, and I'm glad to see other teams do it.

But sithmonkey's story is very true... I've even seen it on teams where the girls are from that school... the girls (in general ) aren't as comfortable as the boys at jumping right in, and if they don't have a friend or two that they are close with, they often leave the team, regardless of their interest. Heck, when I joined, it was only because 3 of my good friends were joining (one of which was another female a year older than me).

[Rachel2177]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

How many girls actually go through the FRC program and decide on an engineering major? How many women that had their start in these robotics programs have gone on into fields of math, science, and engineering?

I welcome posts from the women who are scientists and engineers and who read CD. Share your thoughts.

Jane

Well I figured it was time to share my piece...

I was a junior in high school when my school started our FIRST robotics team, The Robettes. Up until then, I was planning on going to college for psychology. After I joined FIRST, like everyone else who is on a team, it became my life and I knew engineering was what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. You know the saying "Do what you love and you will never work a day in your life," well that is how I feel.


I did not decided go to a "regular" college, I went to an engineering and science college. So if I changed my mind about my major I would have to leave because they offer math, science, and engineering degrees. I am now a junior working toward my electrical engineering degree.

Let me just say if I wasn't a member of the Robettes AND I didn't attend an all-girls high school, I probably wouldn't have made it two semesters. None of my college classmates would let me do any work in our labs and they always dismissed what I would say. Unfortunately for them, they didn't realize that because of the Robettes I knew I was good at engineering and I knew what I was talking about and I wasn't going to let them walk all over me. It's horrible, but the girls that didn't make it just couldn't stand the way they were being treated and decided to switch to a different field completely (hey if they were getting treated like this is college, they really weren't looking forward to working in the real world).

As a freshman in college I got an internship with EchoStar. The man who hired me said he knew I haven't taken any core EE classes yet, but he was familiar with FIRST and knew I could handle it. As a sophomore in college I got a internship with John Deere. They hired me because of my previous engineering experience and my GPA. And as I type this I am currently in Atlanta doing a co-op with Johnson & Johnson. If it wasn't for FIRST getting the ball rolling none of this would be happening for me.

I am one of only 6 girls in my college's whole Electrical and Computer Engineering Department. I was the only freshmen in my class to get an internship and I was the only sophomore in my class to get over 8 internship offers and work for a huge engineering company. Junior year I got over 15 internship and co-op offers. Please don't take this as me bragging, take this as if I couldn't be involved in FIRST because single gender teams weren't allowed look at all the opportunities I would miss out from.

Sexism never goes away. And maybe I missed over it, but I didn't see any females in this thread agree that single gender teams shouldn't be allowed. Because until you are a female in a male dominated interest, you honestly don't know how hard it is for us and all we have to go through.

[Dancin103]

Originally Posted by Rachel2177

Sexism never goes away. And maybe I missed over it, but I didn't see any females in this thread agree that single gender teams shouldn't be allowed. Because until you are a female in a male dominated interest, you honestly don't know how hard it is for us and all we have to go through.

Rachel, I think that what you are doing is absolutely awesome. I, like you, am in a male dominant field at my college, however, I could easily change that. I love math and I always will. Thank you for sharing your story and your words of encouragement.

The statement that I quoted from Rachel is entirely true. Rachel, thank you again for your thoughts. They go along way. In today's society, wait almost always, it has been difficult for females to dominate in this male dominent world.

Cass

[Molten]

Originally Posted by Rachel2177

None of my college classmates would let me do any work in our labs and they always dismissed what I would say.

Just to be clear, this isn't sexism. I think this has happened in most group oriented situations I've seen. I've kind of learned not to trust a person until I've worked with them a while. I take my hat off to anyone that can go with college without becoming a bit this way. I'm not saying the rest of your points aren't valid, but I just don't want you to think that the sole reason you was treated this way was because you was a girl. At my college, you'd probably be treated this way until you've proven that you know what your doing. After that, they are more likely to let you do more(if not most) of the work without issue.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by Molten

Just to be clear, this isn't sexism. I think this has happened in most group oriented situations I've seen. I've kind of learned not to trust a person until I've worked with them a while. I take my hat off to anyone that can go with college without becoming a bit this way. I'm not saying the rest of your points aren't valid, but I just don't want you to think that the sole reason you was treated this way was because you was a girl. At my college, you'd probably be treated this way until you've proven that you know what your doing. After that, they are more likely to let you do more(if not most) of the work without issue.

You can't POSSIBLY know that it is or isn't sexism. That you've experienced or seen something similar happen in other circumstances has absolutely NO bearing on her experience and it should not be used to invalidate what she's written.

This thread. Argh.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Molten

Just to be clear, this isn't sexism.

You can't be serious.

[Molten]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

You can't be serious.

I just wanted to bring to light that not everything bad that happens to a woman is sexism, nor everything that happens to a minority is racism. I found she had many good points, but being ignored and not trusted is kind of a part of being new to lab groups. I suppose I should have said "This isn't necessarily sexism." Its true that in her circumstance that particular school might be completely trusting of anyone but women. Its true I couldn't know whether or not that is true and if that is the case I completely retract my statement with full apologies. However, my intended point stands true. This could have just as easily been the fact that they didn't know her. I've been burned many times for trusting a stranger with my grade and am unlikely to let that happen again.

Sorry for the tone I've had a really bad week. I could have definitely worded my thoughts better. However, I do believe that it is often easy to jump to the conclusion that the reason a person is treating "me" a particular way is because of X. Honestly, we can't know why people treat us the way they do unless they tell us. That was the point I was trying to convey. Nothing more or less.

Jason

[smurfgirl]

I'm surprised that anyone could think that an all-girls team isn't a positive force in their community - an all-girls team, like any other FIRST team, provides students with hands-on experience, role models, development opportunities, and is generally inspirational. Each FIRST team that exists is something positive, period.

Also, while representation of, opportunities for, and treatment of women in the STEM fields has come a long way, there is a still a long way to go. Anything that promotes women's advancement in these fields and provides young women with positive role models is a good thing, in my opinion.

I'm not really seeing why this thread exists.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Molten

I just wanted to bring to light that not everything bad that happens to a woman is sexism, nor everything that happens to a minority is racism. I found she had many good points, but being ignored and not trusted is kind of a part of being new to lab groups. I suppose I should have said "This isn't necessarily sexism." Its true that in her circumstance that particular school might be completely trusting of anyone but women. Its true I couldn't know whether or not that is true and if that is the case I completely retract my statement with full apologies. However, my intended point stands true. This could have just as easily been the fact that they didn't know her. I've been burned many times for trusting a stranger with my grade and am unlikely to let that happen again.

Sorry for the tone I've had a really bad week. I could have definitely worded my thoughts better. However, I do believe that it is often easy to jump to the conclusion that the reason a person is treating "me" a particular way is because of X. Honestly, we can't know why people treat us the way they do unless they tell us. That was the point I was trying to convey. Nothing more or less.

Jason

The thing your missing here Jason is that, in her situation, everyone was new. Taking the general ed/freshman classes, everyone is new to the school and the environment. Given that, why should she be excluded any more than others in her class?

I can tell you from my experiences in college... even in my first semester physics lab, my lab partners never excluded me or ignored me. But, we were all guys (seriously, have you tried to find a girl in an Electrical Engineering and Computer Science department?). We were all new to the school, no one knew anyone else... it was a perfect environment to be open to others ideas without the baggage of past experiences and expectations.

I can tell you, without a doubt, Rachael is one of the Robettes all stars. She was the first person on the team who really "got it", and by far the most dedicated. She has personally inspired and drawn in quite a bit of the team, and she's one we still talk about when we're trying to inspire the girls. Anyone in her labs would really have to be foolish not to listen to her.

Finally, a closing thought from working with an all-girls team for 5 years. Our drive team is most often ignored by other drive teams. Not because we don't have something valuable to say, or because our students are timid or shy, or because we've done poorly in the past (highest seeded rookie team, finalist the next 3 years, and winning at North Star this year). Can you explain why that is if it's not gender based?

[Molten]

Originally Posted by eagle33199

The thing your missing here Jason is that, in her situation, everyone was new. Taking the general ed/freshman classes, everyone is new to the school and the environment. Given that, why should she be excluded any more than others in her class?

I can tell you from my experiences in college... even in my first semester physics lab, my lab partners never excluded me or ignored me. But, we were all guys (seriously, have you tried to find a girl in an Electrical Engineering and Computer Science department?). We were all new to the school, no one knew anyone else... it was a perfect environment to be open to others ideas without the baggage of past experiences and expectations.

I can tell you, without a doubt, Rachael is one of the Robettes all stars. She was the first person on the team who really "got it", and by far the most dedicated. She has personally inspired and drawn in quite a bit of the team, and she's one we still talk about when we're trying to inspire the girls. Anyone in her labs would really have to be foolish not to listen to her.

Finally, a closing thought from working with an all-girls team for 5 years. Our drive team is most often ignored by other drive teams. Not because we don't have something valuable to say, or because our students are timid or shy, or because we've done poorly in the past (highest seeded rookie team, finalist the next 3 years, and winning at North Star this year). Can you explain why that is if it's not gender based?

Honestly, my college must be different because everyone started out rather skeptical of one another. Perhaps the culture difference. Also, I know several girls in mechanical engineering and one in electrical that I share classes with this semester. I can't speak as to the computer sciences as I've not taken any of those classes myself. Note: I'm not saying they aren't vastly outnumbered.(I'd estimate them being outnumbered 20 to 1 but thats really more a guess then anything else as it varies alot between classes and semesters)

As far as the reason your team is ignored: I thought back to when I was a student on 1766 and alot of teams are so focused on their own team that they tend to ignore whats going on around them. I'd estimate that this makes up some fraction of the reason people aren't paying attention to your team. I would not estimate it to be the only reason. Just part of it. Thats the thing, there are too many variables to something like this. Can you really tell me that the only reason people are ignoring you is due to your team gender? I have no doubt that it isn't the reason for some teams. I just suggest we don't paint with such a big brush. Some of those teams ignore you for other reasons and don't deserve to be assumed to be sexist. Inconsiderate, yes but please don't assume intentions unless the person tells you or there has been a strong trend with that individual person.

[ghandler94]

I go to an all-girls school and hate that aspect of it. Personally, it doesn't work for me. It is not anything like the real-world and there is an obvious lack of balance in the classroom.

I am on an all-girls rookie team because it is the only team I am eligible to join. It came as a shock how much I appreciate the inspiration it has given me. The extreme lack of women in STEM careers is astounding and from visiting FIRST teams with one or two girls and seeing how ostracized they are, I've really grown an appreciation. I'm fairly assertive and would not let anyone, boy or girl, have a demeaning effect on me. But, it's still been a really awesome experience to have!

[Katie_UPS]

Originally Posted by Molten

As far as the reason your team is ignored: I thought back to when I was a student on 1766 and alot of teams are so focused on their own team that they tend to ignore whats going on around them. I'd estimate that this makes up some fraction of the reason people aren't paying attention to your team. I would not estimate it to be the only reason. Just part of it. Thats the thing, there are too many variables to something like this. Can you really tell me that the only reason people are ignoring you is due to your team gender? I have no doubt that it isn't the reason for some teams. I just suggest we don't paint with such a big brush. Some of those teams ignore you for other reasons and don't deserve to be assumed to be sexist. Inconsiderate, yes but please don't assume intentions unless the person tells you or there has been a strong trend with that individual person.

I get that you dislike the "oh, I'm a girl, people don't listen". I do too. I want to rise above it, not complain about it. But you're coming off as if to say that it is us (girls) overreacting... but lets be honest. It DOES happen. In actually strategy meetings, team's aren't THAT absorbed in themselves. In the lab, she didn't just happen to be ignored. Sure, we shouldn't assume... but we are just as capable as you are to drawing logical conclusions.

[Molten]

Originally Posted by Katie_UPS

I get that you dislike the "oh, I'm a girl, people don't listen". I do too. I want to rise above it, not complain about it. But you're coming off as if to say that it is us (girls) overreacting... but lets be honest. It DOES happen. In actually strategy meetings, team's aren't THAT absorbed in themselves. In the lab, she didn't just happen to be ignored. Sure, we shouldn't assume... but we are just as capable as you are to drawing logical conclusions.

I don't believe you(or anyone) are overreacting when you are being unfairly discriminated against. It shouldn't happen at all, but it does. My main point is that nobody can really tell right away what a persons motives are. It takes a little bit of time to really know the person before you can tell exactly what their motives are. Afterall, what happened to innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? I'm not saying there aren't signs that it might have been discrimination. But I definitely believe there's plenty of room for reasonable doubt. I'm sure I've done many things with respect to a minority that would seem racist if you didn't wait to see that I do it with people of my same race. Perfect example, when I get into a group that requires presenting I look each member of my team in the eye and ask how they are at public speaking. I've had some minorities react as if I'm asking because they are a minority, but I assure you I ask the same thing to anyone that I haven't seen do a presentation. I know my example isn't as bad as ignoring a lab partner but it was honestly the most illustrative example I could come up with at the moment.

Jason

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by Molten

My main point is that nobody can really tell right away what a persons motives are. It takes a little bit of time to really know the person before you can tell exactly what their motives are. Afterall, what happened to innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? I'm not saying there aren't signs that it might have been discrimination.

As you're mentioning this, I thought I might add that discrimination is not necessarily a conscious process. Implicit bias occurs on a subconscious level, without the need for an articulable logical justification. (Explicit bias is where motives enter the picture.) This makes the problem of identifying and confronting discrimination harder: if someone is not cognizant of a another person's implicit bias that leads to discriminatory behaviour, it could be overreaching to ascribe that behaviour to a conscious motive.

Incidentally, the "innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" stuff is a common law standard of proof for criminal charges. Technically, it's not applicable to the civil realm, where discrimination tends to be litigated. If you apply that as your personal standard of proof when judging discrimination, that's fine—but there's no legal requirement to apply that standard on a personal basis.

[pdepra]

The mission of FIRST is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders... As long as any team does that, how can it be counterproductive?

I think that if there are young women out there who are inspired by being on "all-girls" team, and they would not have joined a co-ed team, then YAY!!