TOWER Malfunctions since Week 3

[Racer26]

Just wanted to make a comment about the TOWERs.

I have noticed 3 separate TOWER malfunctions since Week 3, when FIRST decided that the TOWERS and FMS would be the final say.

Week 4: Waterloo Regional

Semi-final Match 1-2: 2056's robot crashes into the TOWER base, and sends their minibot up, which strikes the top and comes flying off. TOWER TRIGGERED, but lights failed to go on. FMS received the TRIGGER. (This one, I believe to simply be a matter of the TOWER losing electrical connection with the lights due to impact. This TOWER remained broken for Finals 1 and 2.

Week 5: Greater Toronto EAST Regional

Q58: At T-15 seconds, the roadrunner sound plays and the TOWERs begin the endgame sequence (BASE flashing Yellow, Top indicators flashing all 4 lights). At T-10 seconds, when the TOWERs normally switch the BASEs to Alliance colors, and the Top indicators start the chase sequence, the TOWER BASEs switched, but the Top indicators remained flashing all 4 lights. At approximately T-6 seconds, 1075's minibot hit the top of the TOWER, same as it had been all weekend, TOWER did not TRIGGER. At T-0 seconds, the TOWER Top indicators begun the chase sequence. Referees made the call to award the points to 1075's mini.

Week 6: Michigan State Championship

Quarter-final 2-1: 27/245 (red) and 1718 (blue) DEPLOY MINIBOTs. 245 DEPLOYED early, so their TOWER was DISABLED. 27 and 1718's MINIBOTs reached the top close enough together that its difficult to tell who won. 27's MINIBOT did NOT TRIGGER the TOWER. 1718's did. Race was SCORED as 27, 1718, 245(disabled).

Any other interesting TOWER malfunctions?

[davidthefat]

What my view on this subject is "stuff happens". Simple as that. We can't go back and change the outcomes of a match. Field equipments beak down just like robots. We can go over all the malfunctions of towers, it is a fruitless as going over all the robot malfunctions that dozens of teams have experienced.

[nikeairmancurry]

What's weird with this is per update 18... If the tower does not tigger it doesn't count... 27 did not trigger the tower... Therefore shouldn't of had counted... As in other regionals where this was upheld...

[JesseK]

There were a couple of malfunctions at VCU. The only one 1885 was apart of was during our first Qual match (Q7?), when our minibot deployed, keeled over 6" up the tower, yet somehow the tower still triggered. We didn't get the points since we didn't actually TRIGGER the tower by definition.

[dodar]

Originally Posted by nikeairmancurry

What's weird with this is per update 18... If the tower does not tigger it doesn't count... 27 did not trigger the tower... Therefore shouldn't of had counted... As in other regionals where this was upheld...

The tower did trigger. Even though the lights didnt show it, the FMS system saw it.

[Racer26]

@dodar: Are you sure? Based on the way I read the discussion in the Michigan State Championship thread, FMS did NOT pick up 27 at all. I'm inclined to believe this based on the video, and my personal experience with the instance at WAT. (if it had, it would be a case more like what happened in Semi 1-2 at WAT - TOWER lights not illuminated, but other towers still showing correct readout [1114's mini had 4 lights, 2056's had no lights and no chase sequence after impact, 1075's had 2 lights]) 27's TOWER maintained the chase sequence, even after impact.

[dodar]

I am pretty sure I remember hearing Dave say that the FMS system did pick up the hit even though the lights did not. But if a member of 27 could tell us what actually happened, that would be better.

[Racer26]

I know thats what happened in Waterloo. The FMS picked up the score (evidenced by 1075's mini only scoring 3rd), but the lights were toasted. Thats not what happened in Michigan though, at least, the failure mode isn't the same. 1718's TOWER showed 4 lights.

[Joe Ross]

I've also seen several cases where a tower TRIGGERedd prior to the minibot hitting it.

[IKE]

We had a match where our alignment device triggered the tower sensor before the minibot deployed. Unfortunately, this was the "4th" minibot which disabled the field and thus our team did not get a chance to deploy that match. It was an interesting ruling in that the "tower" triggered, but since a minibot did not deploy, the team could not be given the points.

Gotta love automated scoring systems. When they work, they work, when they don't... well... were not gonna talk about that, and instead focus on how they almost always sorta kinda most of the time work pretty much as planned (once they have been fixed a couple of times).

[Jack Jones]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

What my view on this subject is "stuff happens". Simple as that. We can't go back and change the outcomes of a match. Field equipments beak down just like robots. We can go over all the malfunctions of towers, it is a fruitless as going over all the robot malfunctions that dozens of teams have experienced.

Rule T-17 covers "Stuff Happens" as follows:
<T17> If, in the judgment of the Head Referee, an “ARENA fault” occurs that affects either the play or the outcome of the MATCH, the MATCH will be replayed. Example ARENA faults include broken field elements, power failure to a portion of the field, improper activation of the field control system, errors by field personnel, etc.

We have all seen instances where the towers should have triggered, but didn't. As humans we are not perfect, but it's obvious that the tower mechanisms and/or software are not perfect either. It is a shame that Update #18 pretends that they are.

Originally Posted by dodar

The tower did trigger. Even though the lights didnt show it, the FMS system saw it..

And you know that how?
__________________

[pathew100]

Originally Posted by IKE

We had a match where our alignment device triggered the tower sensor before the minibot deployed. Unfortunately, this was the "4th" minibot which disabled the field and thus our team did not get a chance to deploy that match. It was an interesting ruling in that the "tower" triggered, but since a minibot did not deploy, the team could not be given the points.

That happened a few times at MSC in quals and elims. And it brings up an interesting quandary. Because of the false trigger, the game ends about 5-6 seconds early.

At that point the referees have to huddle and determine whether or not an alliance could have done enough in the 5-6 seconds that should have happened to effect the outcome of the match. (Because this is technically a field fault)

In most cases hanging 1 or 2 tubes that late in the match will not change the outcome (Most matches at MSC had 3-4 logos on the top and middle rows already so your possible points for hanging 1-2 more tubes is low).

If the score was close and the refs thought someone could have scored tubes to change the outcome then we would have replayed the match. Luckily this was not necessary.

[FRC4ME]

I saw a few sensors fail to trigger that probably should have at VCU.

That the sensors don't work all the time is not an issue. While I would have liked to see less failures, we can't expect the field to work 100% of the time. Where I see a problem is FIRST explicitly disallowing referees from overriding the automated scoring system in instances when it clearly did not work correctly. To pretend that the sensors work perfectly ("you must not have hit with enough force," "you must have hit a bolt," "it works when we whack it with a broom so it must be your minibot's fault..." etc) when they obviously do not is, IMO, a bit arrogant.

[ChristopherBuck]

There were at least three innstances where minibots did not trigger a particular tower at the VA (VCU) regional. I don't have the match numbers on hand, but I will look through the archive of the even later to find which ones they were. It happened to three different teams (at least), 612, 11, and 339 as stated above. In the cases I saw, it was pretty clear that the minibots hit with enough force, did not hit the bolt, and as far as the human eye could tell, looked like they hit the plate for more than 5ms.

[Jared Russell]

At Philly, both 365 and 1403 deployed minibots that failed to trigger the tower (despite a very loud THUD at the top).