Defense for Logomotion

[jts]

Team 900 at the NC Regional was quite effective at implementing a tube starvation strategy in addition to the general harassment of the other alliance's scoring robots. In many matches we were able to block nearly all of the tubes being thrown in from reaching the opposing alliance.

[Wayne TenBrink]

Originally Posted by fuzzy1718

There is a lot more to defense then just stalling people in this game. One of the most effective defensive strategies is tube starvation. You seen it a lot at MSC. I'm not saying stalling an opponent is not affective. In fact when mixed with tube starvation it is quite crippling to an alliance.

My personal opinion, based upon watching quite a few differant elimination rounds, having 1 robot stall the other alliance's movement to and from the rack, 1 robot delivering tubes to its safe zone, and 1 robot hanging is one of the best strategies.

Has anyone else seen this?

I agree. Early in the season, I thought that defense was a futile sign of desperation by an alliance that couldn't hang tubes, but that was wrong. As the season developed, it became apparent that even two fast hangers tend to get in each other's way. A well supplied, fast hanger can do 2-3 logos. A pair of good HP's can pretty much keep a fast tube hanger busy without ever leaving their scoring zone. A second hanger can clean up tubes that don't make it to the scoring zone & either deliver them or hang a logo. The third partner can focus on a mix of tube starvation and delay tactics. They don't need to shut their opponents down completely - just make them go as far as possible to get what they need. The defender then gets to be the front line of defense between the slowest-to-line-up hanger and the tower.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by penguinfrk

I wasn't able to watch any matches with Dragonfly from 3553. How'd they do this season?

Dragonfly's defense was definitely above average in Philly with room for improvement. They clearly displayed their ability to interrupt the scoring flow of any single robot, and at times, multiple robots depending on the situation.

That being said, in it's Philly Configuration, Dragonfly was not without flaw, and one of their major flaws was exploited during their Elimination Run while Playing 103 and 56. 3553 was extremely effective at keeping 103 and 56 from leaving and entering their scoring zone to get tubes efficiently, but thanks to some good strategy on the part of 103 and 56 they found a way to work around this - 56 would pass tubes to 103, instead of attempting to score them.

What'll be Interesting, is seeing 3553's Dragonfly at the Championship Event with a consistent more practiced Driveteam and a more effective Minibot Deployment Mechanism. If they were to pair or be paired with two strong scorers (5+ tubes each) then that Alliance is going to be tough to beat.

[Akash Rastogi]

Unfortunately, the only match I have a full video of is QF match 1 in which our driveteam forgot to take our safety bungie cord off the wings. This was the only time a mistake like that was made. If people still want to see it:

http://www.youtube.com/user/SouthPhillyRambots

103 didn't know if we were bungied down, so they played some heavy defense on us. Final score of that match was 63-59. I wish the drive team didn't leave the safety on there

I'll be the first to admit that our performance was sub-par. In St. Louis we'll be a whole different kind of defense though. If we get selected for an alliance at the Championships, I will consider it an awesome rookie season.

[stuart2054]

Originally Posted by GGCO

Despite FIRST's attempts to penalize defense into obscurity, defense is definitely a huge part of Logomotion. The biggest reason is that its a mess to have three robots trying to score at once, and therefore it just makes sense to have the third robot play defense.

Grant,

I have to agree with you. Two offense robots, one defense seems to be the most effective to me. Three is definatley a crowd in this game. A good defensive robot and team can deny alot of points as well as bring a crucial tube for a LOGO to your end of the field. If tube starvation is severe it might make sense for one offense, one tube retriever and one defence but if the human players are good, I think two can stay one offense.

[BJC]

I actually thought that the #8 alliance at MSC did an amazing job with three robots scoring. Granted most alliances can't really pull it off.. but, man, #8 was crazy.

As to effective defense. One of the best things you can do is push all of the other alliances tubes into your lanes. This is killer.

Selective tube starvation is also super effective.

http://www.youtube.com/user/FIRSTinM.../1/wlvrf-RtPOE

In this finals match in Ann Arbor the red alliance steals all of blue's triangles. Blue doesn't realize it until its too late and can't make any logos. Awesome stratigy!

[ToddF]

So if the benefit of hanging a red triangle and completing a top row logo is 3+9=12 points and the cost to fetch one from the blue zone is 3 penalty points, why on earth would red leave logos unfinished? Once the red triangles are on the blue rack, they are untouchable, but if they are on the floor in a blue zone, they are usable, but come with a price. Tube starvation is pretty neat, but certainly not unbeatable by a couple fast hangers. The key is to maintain enough situational awareness to realize you are being starved.

[joeweber]

I do believe that a strong defense robot can make a difference in the game. I have seen team 3536 rank very high at Kettering district, Ann Arbor District and EMU state competition by playing defense only. The only tube they delivered was an uber tube. Unfortunately at state nobody would pick them. If some of the teams would have taken them into the finals it could have made a difference for them. The question is will they be picked in the finals because they are only a defense robot? I would think it would be a mistake not to.

I am also surprised that there were no defense robots that could throw tubes across the field to there team mates. What a help that would be.

[icyplanetnhc]

During the Silicon Valley Regional, the defense that 604 played against 254 in the finals was surprisingly effective. In fact, 254 was being pushed around at its side and couldn't break free. I think their light weight prevents them from having the necessary traction to break the friction between the bumpers. If 604's alliance was more effective at scoring, 254's alliance, which is the first seed, may have lost the competition

This leads me to speculate. Would a defensive robot be effective if it has a powerful enough drive train with enough traction and gear reduction and very high friction cloth for bumpers. If it pushes another robot at its side, it may be effective in preventing the other robot from maneuvering. Of course, this is just a thought, and I haven't done any math to substantiate this speculation, so I may be completely wrong.

[Blackphantom91]

Defense should be a one robot thing just to avoid penalties, but you could cause tons of problems just by poking away tubes and "bullying" the top robot on the alliance thus hopefully cutting there scoring down by half. I mean at championships the likely hood of an alliance getting a good 3rd is high so you could theoretically do three scorers and outscoring the other alliance. Defense can be pretty good if apply correctly.