Field Electronics

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Johnny_5

I am interested in building a full blown FRC field. Does anyone have a list of components used in the station control cabinets (SCC's)?

Do you really need to duplicate the official FIRST field electronics? Unless you intend to try running a full-featured FMS with its industrial-strength router and a connection to FIRST HQ, all it takes to support a field is a reasonably modern computer, a good wireless router, a hub or two, and a few hundred feet of network cable.

[ATannahill]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

Do you really need to duplicate the official FIRST field electronics? Unless you intend to try running a full-featured FMS with its industrial-strength router and a connection to FIRST HQ, all it takes to support a field is a reasonably modern computer, a good wireless router, a hub or two, and a few hundred feet of network cable.

Alan, you are correct that not everything is necessary.

But what about the towers and team/time displays and the driver station lights?

[dez250]

Even if you were to mechanically duplicate the SCC's, the Scorpion Case, the displays and E-Stops, and close to 100 other pieces of hardware, you still would have to duplicate the software and coded side of everything. While the FMS (Lite) software is out there, the server setup and things like PLC Code are not public domain.

If you need a field for a pre or post season event, they can be rented from FIRST HQ. If you are just looking for a field setup to run during the season and build time to have a single to a number of teams play and practice on, then thats when FMS Lite, a good router, and lots of Cat-5 cables come in handy.

[Johnny_5]

I am totally and completely aware of the cost associated with building a field. I am not interested in building a field with the airtight and contact link with the FIRST HQ. I want a field to take to an off season events in my area without paying for the field rental and FTA at the event. I want the scoring interface, DS interface, judges panels, the displays and e stop interface.

Our team is working on the resources to get the field and full electronics. The way I see it, it's not about the money, it's about getting high school kids who maybe couldn't afford to go on the trip. Or maybe showing kids what FIRST is all about. With the resources of this field we can get FIRST exposed to even more people. Maybe the team could adapt the field for use in a mini battlebots competition in our high school for a fundraiser?

The question to me is why is FIRST being so secretive about the field? And why can't I get detailed information about the field? I just think this secret thing is kind of dumb.

[ATannahill]

How do you know it is a secret?

Have you asked them for the information?

[Johnny_5]

That is just what the other posters have told me. I am not sure if it is a secret or not. I hope it is not a secret. I sent an email to FIRST about a week and a half ago and have heard nothing back yet

[alectronic]

I dont think it is a secret, I think it is because they do not really see any particular reason why someone would want to do this. It is expensive and complicated. I am not saying you should not, I think it would be a great challenge, but they have a lot of money in the field, both physical and paychecks for those that write the code. And beyond that, much of the hardware components are donated, so they may not even have the data.

[Johnny_5]

I am sure that they have the field data, or they could at least put me in contact with someone at Allen Bradley that does. I really hope it is not a secret. I have been sifting through images that our team has taken while at the DS's and I have found some pretty nice pictures of the SCC's

The two emails I have sent to FIRST have just been to their general inquiry email address. Any other ideas where to send it?

[Kims Robot]

1511 has built a near real field for the last several years for our Preship Rally, and more recently for the Monroe County Fair, for somewhat similar reasons.

You can see some photos here:
2010 Monroe County Fair
2011 Rally
2010 Rally

It is very similar to the scrimmage fields and warehouse build season fields that many teams build, as it is mostly built out of wood, plus lexan drivers stations & conduit siderails.

In the past one of our mentors has written an FMS, and we have also used/modified the FMS lite to work for us.

However, for the offseason event that we run, we generally use the NASA field (though have borrowed a FIRST field in the past).
Ruckus 2010
Ruckus 2009

This can be a very costly endeavor either way. Borrowing the NASA or FIRST field often costs around $2K, plus you need to be able to provide insurance (sometimes can be done via the school or sponsor policies). To build a field similar to the one that I have shown depends upon the year, but its probably close to $2K plus for the outside structure, and another $2K for the internals (ramps, goals, structures, etc)... and this assumes you have borrowed carpet. Plus you also need to buy fiberboard to lay under the carpet so you do not damage the gym floors or other surfaces. All told over 3 years its probably close to $10K investment.

This doesn't count the truck rentals or trailer that you will need to be able to transport all of this. We spent another $3K on a trailer and have access to a couple of pickup trucks that we can sometimes use.

The official field electronics is a whole different story. Even with all the events we have run, we have never seen a real need for the full blown system. And with my limited knowledge some of the "secret" behind it, my guess is that it is likely that FIRST is constantly upgrading and making improvements (like any engineering company) so they second they release something to the public, they not only have to support it, but they have to provide upgrades. That's likely more than their staff is able to handle. A clever group of SW & Electrical folks could probably fairly easily create an electronics system that would replace the FMS system and do a reasonably good job for demos & scrimmages (as we have in the past).

I'm sure its not exactly the answer you were looking for, but if you want to know more about the field 1511 created, you can PM me or submit to their contact form.

[Johnny_5]

Hey, thanks a lot.

Our team has looked at both the wood and metal field plans and are leaning toward the metal field. It does not look like resources are going to be a huge issue in building the field.

Transportation has been something that I have been looking at for the past few days. I personally have a flat bed trailer to transport things on, but other mentors have enclosed haulmark trailers that I think we could use. I know FIRST uses 1 full tractor trailer to transport everything FIRST related to an event. Although cases for all of the equipment and field elements would be very nice, we will have to get away with being careful and only casing the sensitive electronics.

For the metal field, would you happen to have a BOM that I could have? I have yet to go through all of the plans and make a BOM. I am looking for a company that may be able to give us the money for the field components and then another company to provide the money for the electronics.

And I truly don't think things are actually meant to be a secret, I just think that its not public information. I am questioning why it is taking FIRST so long to respond to my emails, but then they are probably VERY busy preparing for the championship. So I assume that as soon as championship is over I will receive an email from them.

The breakdown of the whole field is actually a relatively simple machine when you break it down into small components. In fact, I think I am close to understanding a majority of the field so far. I encourage people who are interested in the field to PM me. You can find the FTA and field crew manuals online. Plus I have many pictures I have found across the web and pictures I have.

The thing FIRST needs to understand with my case is that I'm not asking for a whole lot from them. I am asking for a list of components, a wiring diagram and schematics for all of their custom made components, and the software.

But yet, that's just what I think

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Johnny_5

The thing FIRST needs to understand with my case is that I'm not asking for a whole lot from them. I am asking for a list of components, a wiring diagram and schematics for all of their custom made components, and the software.

It sounds to me like you are asking for a lot. There are new custom made components and new software for each game. To give you what you appear to want would require ongoing support.

[Johnny_5]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

It sounds to me like you are asking for a lot. There are new custom made components and new software for each game.

Yes, that is true. But I do not think that components are truly custom made. For example the minibot poles use a standard sensor available to anyone through an electronics distributor, and AB sells the stacked panel indicators that are used on top of the pole. The judge interface found on the sides of the fields are simply a tradition panelview system with a special software used for a GUI. And if I understand the panelview software correctly that the panelview connects to a server (FMS) and then receives the program over ethernet.

So yes in some sense I am asking for a lot. I am asking for when they release the data about the new field to the public that I be on that list.

[dez250]

Originally Posted by Johnny_5

... I'm not asking for a whole lot from them. I am asking for a list of components, a wiring diagram and schematics for all of their custom made components, and the software ...

What else is there to ask for if that is not a lot?

As for FIRST releasing the data, including code to the public, please don't hold your breath. The software is [partially] developed for FIRST under contract with 3rd party developers, I would not bet FIRST would just hand over something they paid to have created.
Also one of the other major issues is providing support. Much of the field is not just plug and play and go smoothly, as much as it appears to be. FIRST does not have the man power nor resources to support each person who would have issues if they did release hardware and software to the public.

[Racer26]

On the note of field electronics, I wonder if IFI would release the pinout/comms protocol between the OI and Arena Controllers on the old 2004-2008 systems, now that we're 3 years out from anyone using them.