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  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-04-2011, 21:32
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Re: Gus 228's 1.3 second Minibot

I am not convinced that this is legal.

I understand that your minibot provides all the energy for vertical movement - no energy comes from the hostbot. However, there is more to Rule <G19> than just where the energy comes from. It also requires all such energy to be
provided "after the start of DEPLOYMENT". Section 1.6 of the game manual defines the start of DEPLOYMENT as the moment at which the minibot first crosses the vertical projection of the tower base (not when the clock reaches 10 seconds, and not when you press the "deploy" button on the control panel). The "blue box" advisory on <G19> states that "Energy for vertical movement may not be stored in the MINIBOT before DEPLOYMENT". It provides an exception for "incidental kinetic energy stored in the motors or wheels, but NOT, for example, in a flywheel". Nearly two weeks ago, I posted a question on Q&A asking whether the self-generated horizontal kinetic energy in a minibot prior "DEPLOYMENT" would be considered "incidental" (therefore legal) or "stored" (therefore illegal). Clearly, the minibot benefits from it. We were considering this approach and were trying to get clarity before the Championship. My question was not answered.

There is another Q&A topic regarding this issue. The response has been interpreted as an approval of ramp-style deployment, but the question is conditioned on "after deploying the minibot" and the answer also includes the phrase "after the start of DEPLOYMENT". Perhaps we understand deployment differently.
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Unread 21-04-2011, 21:41
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Re: Gus 228's 1.3 second Minibot

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Originally Posted by Wayne TenBrink View Post
I am not convinced that this is legal.

I understand that your minibot provides all the energy for vertical movement - no energy comes from the hostbot. However, there is more to Rule <G19> than just where the energy comes from. It also requires all such energy to be provided "after the start of DEPLOYMENT". Section 1.6 of the game manual defines the start of DEPLOYMENT as the moment at which the minibot first crosses the vertical projection of the tower base (not when the clock reaches 10 seconds, and not when you press the "deploy" button on the control panel). The "blue box" advisory on <G19> states that "Energy for vertical movement may not be stored in the MINIBOT before DEPLOYMENT". It provides an exception for "incidental kinetic energy stored in the motors or wheels, but NOT, for example, in a flywheel". Nearly two weeks ago, I posted a question on Q&A asking whether the self-generated horizontal kinetic energy in a minibot prior "DEPLOYMENT" would be considered "incidental" (therefore legal) or "stored" (therefore illegal). Clearly, the minibot benefits from it. We were considering this approach and were trying to get clarity before the Championship. My question was not answered.

There is another Q&A topic regarding this issue. The response has been interpreted as an approval of ramp-style deployment, but the question is conditioned on "after deploying the minibot" and the answer also includes the phrase "after the start of DEPLOYMENT". Perhaps we just understand deployment differently.
I cannot speak for theirs, but being legal in deployment isn't as tough as you may think. I can assure you that ours is completely legal in this regard.
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Unread 21-04-2011, 21:58
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Re: Gus 228's 1.3 second Minibot

Hilary has been telling me how hard you guys have been working to try to get the fast mini-bot, and it looks like it's paid off.

It looks fantastic and great job on perfecting a design like that!

Best of luck in St. Louis, we'll be routing for you back here!
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Unread 21-04-2011, 22:10
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Re: Gus 228's 1.3 second Minibot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne TenBrink View Post
I am not convinced that this is legal.

I understand that your minibot provides all the energy for vertical movement - no energy comes from the hostbot. However, there is more to Rule <G19> than just where the energy comes from. It also requires all such energy to be
provided "after the start of DEPLOYMENT". Section 1.6 of the game manual defines the start of DEPLOYMENT as the moment at which the minibot first crosses the vertical projection of the tower base (not when the clock reaches 10 seconds, and not when you press the "deploy" button on the control panel). The "blue box" advisory on <G19> states that "Energy for vertical movement may not be stored in the MINIBOT before DEPLOYMENT". It provides an exception for "incidental kinetic energy stored in the motors or wheels, but NOT, for example, in a flywheel". Nearly two weeks ago, I posted a question on Q&A asking whether the self-generated horizontal kinetic energy in a minibot prior "DEPLOYMENT" would be considered "incidental" (therefore legal) or "stored" (therefore illegal). Clearly, the minibot benefits from it. We were considering this approach and were trying to get clarity before the Championship. My question was not answered.

There is another Q&A topic regarding this issue. The response has been interpreted as an approval of ramp-style deployment, but the question is conditioned on "after deploying the minibot" and the answer also includes the phrase "after the start of DEPLOYMENT". Perhaps we understand deployment differently.
The GDC as repeatedly told us to look to the "spirit of the rule" when splitting hairs and parsing language in situations such as this. It is clearly the intent of the deployment rules that the minibot's climb not be aided by any external or stored energy source other than from its own motors. Having the minibot self-deploy using its own motors is not only in keeping with this intent, but goes even beyond it, in that it does not even use external energy to perform the act of horizontal deployment, as every other FRC robot does and is allowed to do. The rotation of the motor shafts and rollers "prior" to deployment are exactly the incidental kinetic energy the GDC has ruled as allowable. The horizontal motion gained is no different than the horizontal motion gained by every other deployment method, and is even more conservative in that it uses no external device.
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Unread 21-04-2011, 22:45
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Re: Gus 228's 1.3 second Minibot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne TenBrink View Post
I am not convinced that this is legal.

I understand that your minibot provides all the energy for vertical movement - no energy comes from the hostbot. However, there is more to Rule <G19> than just where the energy comes from. It also requires all such energy to be
provided "after the start of DEPLOYMENT". Section 1.6 of the game manual defines the start of DEPLOYMENT as the moment at which the minibot first crosses the vertical projection of the tower base (not when the clock reaches 10 seconds, and not when you press the "deploy" button on the control panel). The "blue box" advisory on <G19> states that "Energy for vertical movement may not be stored in the MINIBOT before DEPLOYMENT". It provides an exception for "incidental kinetic energy stored in the motors or wheels, but NOT, for example, in a flywheel". Nearly two weeks ago, I posted a question on Q&A asking whether the self-generated horizontal kinetic energy in a minibot prior "DEPLOYMENT" would be considered "incidental" (therefore legal) or "stored" (therefore illegal). Clearly, the minibot benefits from it. We were considering this approach and were trying to get clarity before the Championship. My question was not answered.

There is another Q&A topic regarding this issue. The response has been interpreted as an approval of ramp-style deployment, but the question is conditioned on "after deploying the minibot" and the answer also includes the phrase "after the start of DEPLOYMENT". Perhaps we understand deployment differently.
Our deployment is legal and follows designs already used at several regionals. The minibot has no stored energy other than the battery. The ramp imparts no energy prior to, during, or after the start of deployment. The only benefit to the ramp is that the minibot is allowed to accelerate without the need to overcome gravity immediately. More importantly, after numerous prototype designs, we feel it is one of the most reliable ways to deploy the minibot as it is already in contact with the pole via the ramp extension.
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Unread 21-04-2011, 22:52
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Re: Gus 228's 1.3 second Minibot

Just saying Team 2751's mini goes up in approximately 1 second not counting about a 1/3 second deployment. We also deploy automatically at 10 seconds. Look us up on Youtube our username is frc2751. See you all in St. Louis.
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Unread 21-04-2011, 22:57
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Re: Gus 228's 1.3 second Minibot

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Originally Posted by bdon2751 View Post
Just saying Team 2751's mini goes up in approximately 1 second not counting about a 1/3 second deployment. We also deploy automatically at 10 seconds. Look us up on Youtube our username is frc2751. See you all in St. Louis.
Oh come on. This thread is about 228's deployment, hype your own elsewhere.
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Unread 21-04-2011, 23:16
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Re: Gus 228's 1.3 second Minibot

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Originally Posted by skimoose View Post
Our deployment is legal and follows designs already used at several regionals. The minibot has no stored energy other than the battery. The ramp imparts no energy prior to, during, or after the start of deployment. The only benefit to the ramp is that the minibot is allowed to accelerate without the need to overcome gravity immediately. More importantly, after numerous prototype designs, we feel it is one of the most reliable ways to deploy the minibot as it is already in contact with the pole via the ramp extension.
wow glad someone brought this up. I was just going to start a thread on this. So I will at least try to keep this discussion alive.
I hope to not be offensive but I want to point out a couple things I see.
First off I do not see how you can say that your minibot has no stored energy other than the battery. If we take the state of you minibot a split second before deployment starts(crossing the vertical projection of the tower) you cannot say that your minibot does not have kinetic energy inside it. Especially since the minibot is moving! This is the problem I am having.

I have no problem with the ramps as it was something my team was also planning on doing. However we were a bit nervous on the ruling and did not want to get an illegal ruling especially at champs

Given that, my interpretation is that a minibot that starts deployment from rest and goes up a ramp should be deemed legal (see 1678's ramp+minibot video) and is an elegant solution to the problem. whereas a minibot that starts accelerating before the start of deployment and has kinetic energy stored in it to go up a ramp should be deemed illegal.

Finally the incidental motor+ wheel kinetic energy is just that, motor and wheel. This means that that kinetic energy is not contributing to the kinetic energy of the system.
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Unread 21-04-2011, 23:19
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Re: Gus 228's 1.3 second Minibot

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Originally Posted by kaliken View Post
wow glad someone brought this up. I was just going to start a thread on this. So I will at least try to keep this discussion alive.
I hope to not be offensive but I want to point out a couple things I see.
First off I do not see how you can say that your minibot has no stored energy other than the battery. If we take the state of you minibot a split second before deployment starts(crossing the vertical projection of the tower) you cannot say that your minibot does not have kinetic energy inside it. Especially since the minibot is moving! This is the problem I am having.

I have no problem with the ramps as it was something my team was also planning on doing. However we were a bit nervous on the ruling and did not want to get an illegal ruling especially at champs

Given that, my interpretation is that a minibot that starts deployment from rest and goes up a ramp should be deemed legal (see 1678's ramp+minibot video) and is an elegant solution to the problem. whereas a minibot that starts accelerating before the start of deployment and has kinetic energy stored in it to go up a ramp should be deemed illegal.

Finally the incidental motor+ wheel kinetic energy is just that, motor and wheel. This means that that kinetic energy is not contributing to the kinetic energy of the system.
Although many believe it violates the written letter of the rule, it certainly seems to meet the intent of the rules. The minibot starts moving under it's own power before "deployment", but has no external energy provided.

That combined with the number of high profile teams that have competed with this system so far means it's not going to be made illegal at champs.
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Unread 22-04-2011, 00:05
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Re: Gus 228's 1.3 second Minibot

only part of the minibot has to cross the perimeter before it rockets off, there are plenty of different ways to do this. our motors to not turn on until after the start of the defined "deployment"
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Unread 22-04-2011, 01:25
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Re: Gus 228's 1.3 second Minibot

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That combined with the number of high profile teams that have competed with this system so far means it's not going to be made illegal at champs.
Boy I sure hope that's not the criteria for determining legality.
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Unread 22-04-2011, 01:29
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Re: Gus 228's 1.3 second Minibot

I've heard many of teams still question the legality of this design, itd be nice for the GDC to just flatout say yes or no to ramp designs. Also I cannot say this is the best design. Yes 233 and 1114 have perfected it, but other teams seem to have issues (may not be exactly from the ramp) with this design. I'll take my normal bungie deployment that i know works and fast minibot. I like the design, but I see issues..
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Unread 22-04-2011, 01:32
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Re: Gus 228's 1.3 second Minibot

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Boy I sure hope that's not the criteria for determining legality.
My argument in that statement was that many teams that are well known have competed with this design, and were not ruled illegal. The GDC in the past has ruled things illegal after teams have used them at events, and this has not happened this year.
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Unread 22-04-2011, 01:45
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Re: Gus 228's 1.3 second Minibot

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Boy I sure hope that's not the criteria for determining legality.
I see it another way... Consistency is pretty important. If we're told the line is here, I'd rather they not change it without notice!
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Unread 22-04-2011, 01:52
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Re: Gus 228's 1.3 second Minibot

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Originally Posted by kaliken View Post
First off I do not see how you can say that your minibot has no stored energy other than the battery. If we take the state of you minibot a split second before deployment starts(crossing the vertical projection of the tower) you cannot say that your minibot does not have kinetic energy inside it. Especially since the minibot is moving! This is the problem I am having.
Is there a minibot that does NOT have kinetic energy before crossing the projection?
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