Field Electronics

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Johnny_5

The thing FIRST needs to understand with my case is that I'm not asking for a whole lot from them. I am asking for a list of components, a wiring diagram and schematics for all of their custom made components, and the software.

It sounds to me like you are asking for a lot. There are new custom made components and new software for each game. To give you what you appear to want would require ongoing support.

[Johnny_5]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

It sounds to me like you are asking for a lot. There are new custom made components and new software for each game.

Yes, that is true. But I do not think that components are truly custom made. For example the minibot poles use a standard sensor available to anyone through an electronics distributor, and AB sells the stacked panel indicators that are used on top of the pole. The judge interface found on the sides of the fields are simply a tradition panelview system with a special software used for a GUI. And if I understand the panelview software correctly that the panelview connects to a server (FMS) and then receives the program over ethernet.

So yes in some sense I am asking for a lot. I am asking for when they release the data about the new field to the public that I be on that list.

[dez250]

Originally Posted by Johnny_5

... I'm not asking for a whole lot from them. I am asking for a list of components, a wiring diagram and schematics for all of their custom made components, and the software ...

What else is there to ask for if that is not a lot?

As for FIRST releasing the data, including code to the public, please don't hold your breath. The software is [partially] developed for FIRST under contract with 3rd party developers, I would not bet FIRST would just hand over something they paid to have created.
Also one of the other major issues is providing support. Much of the field is not just plug and play and go smoothly, as much as it appears to be. FIRST does not have the man power nor resources to support each person who would have issues if they did release hardware and software to the public.

[Racer26]

On the note of field electronics, I wonder if IFI would release the pinout/comms protocol between the OI and Arena Controllers on the old 2004-2008 systems, now that we're 3 years out from anyone using them.

[Johnny_5]

Actually I think that I have taken care of the software aspect of it. I think I have found a copy of the 2011 FMS on the internet. The biggest thing for me right now is the remainder of the hardware, and with the FMS and users guides I have been able to unlock a few more parts of the hardware puzzle. Something else I know nothing about is the box with 4 buttons on it that sits on the scorekeepers table, in all the manuals it is referred to as the FCUI

[dag0620]

Originally Posted by Johnny_5

Something else I know nothing about is the box with 4 buttons on it that sits on the scorekeepers table, in all the manuals it is referred to as the FCUI

That I'm going to say is a Mystery.

However, this is one of those times that software can help you out! (Play Super Hero music here).

On a Sirius note, the virtual FCUI in the Full/Delta versions of the FMS does a fantastic job! Plus it keeps less clutter of the scorers table, and saves you a little money.

To be honest, I wouldn't be shocked if the FCUI is nothing but switches (in the form of push buttons) and led displays rigged to the server via Ethernet through a couple electronic boards. I believe it is there so that it allows the scorer multi-task and have easy access to match control.(Those who have preformed the job in on-season, please correct me if I'm wrong).

Edit:
I want to re-iterate others in that for the electronics, I highly recommend if you want the full set, renting is your best option. As long as you can find an FTA to come help you out and the rental fee's, you shouldn't have an issue.

If you feel you can get along with the base set (we've discussed this before), to rent or make is up to you. I feel rent is still more economical, but if your looking for a full-time available practice field prior to the end of champs, building is a great option.

[Mark McLeod]

The FMS software you found does not include the firmware that runs the SCC Allen-Bradley hardware.

[Johnny_5]

I am aware that it does not contain the firmware. But in the way of firmware I have a doubt that it is custom created. Because all the SCC's serve in such a way that it is mainly I/O and then a network switch.

In the SCC there is I/O for the E-stop interface, a switch to tie in all of the DSes. There is a switch port to tie in the judges panelview interface. And I just checked in the field manual and even the scoring targets for the minibot poles get plugged into the network switch. And then there are ethernet ports for the team signs and timer to get plugged into, along with the status lights in front of every DS.

From the images I can decipher there are 3 main components to and SCC. There is the AB Armorblock On-machine IO device, and as far as I can tell this device requires little to no setup besides assigning it an ip address. There is a stratix 8000 AB network switch, I am unsure of why this specific device was chosen, but I think it is solely to operate either the DSes or signs/timers. And finally there is a Cisco Linksys network switch.

OK, just checked. The Linksys switch is specifically for the scoring I/O device and the ethernet based DMX controllers for the minibot base lights. So that means the AB stratix 8000 takes care of the rest.

[artdutra04]

The FIRST field electronics are a classic case of an engineering black box; they tell us what goes in and what comes out, but nothing about how it internally works. As long as the inputs and outputs remain the same, the black box solution allows FIRST to completely change anything inside of there without any other impacts on the system as a whole.

Objects can be black box parts for a wide variety of reasons, including (but not limited to) trade secrets, licensed technology, limited manpower, or just simply because it doesn't matter.

So chances are, you're never going to get any detailed information about the full FRC field for at least one of the above reasons.

And even if you were to somehow acquire full hardware and software information for the FRC fields, what is the real return on investment (ROI) of building this over FMS Lite? Is something that costs an order of magnitude more really going to provide an order of magnitude more benefit? That answer, for a practice/off-season field, is simply no.

Wood/Delta fields and FMS Lite provide the vast majority of the benefits of FRC for a small fraction of the price.

[Johnny_5]

I am curious to how you come across the field as being a black box. I'm not saying that you are wrong and it sure seems like that may be the situation. But from what I have read if FIRST really intended for everything to be locked down and quiet that they wouldn't publish the documents online and put their software on the web.

[joek]

you could always make your own stuff using a computer and crio. crio for management, computer to translate everything into usable forms for field personnel. the scoring sensors would come from the KOP and other sources.

[Johnny_5]

Joek-

In some sense that is actually what the field is. The break down is that all of the E-stop interface's are simply IO's along with the minibot poles. The DS's communicate with the robot cRio's just like we do back at home when we connect labview to the robot with wireless, the field in no way communicates with the cRio.

The biggest thing present in scoring for Logomotion is the 4 Panelview Plus terminals around the corners of the field. There, a human judge stands and inputs all of the inflatables hung by the robots. This is done because there is no (economical and reliable) sensor to discern the different shapes or colors of the inflatable.

So in a sense, the field is just like one big robot

[ATannahill]

Originally Posted by Johnny_5

Joek-

In some sense that is actually what the field is. The break down is that all of the E-stop interface's are simply IO's along with the minibot poles. The DS's communicate with the robot cRio's just like we do back at home when we connect labview to the robot with wireless, the field in no way communicates with the cRio.

Wrong. The field tells the robot whether it is enabled or disabled. The field tells it to operate in autonomous or teleop. The field reads the battery voltage. This is why the driver station is hooked via ethernet to the field electronics.

The biggest thing present in scoring for Logomotion is the 4 Panelview Plus terminals around the corners of the field. There, a human judge stands and inputs all of the inflatables hung by the robots. This is done because there is no (economical and reliable) sensor to discern the different shapes or colors of the inflatable.

So in a sense, the field is just like one big robot

FYI, they are called scorers, not judges.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by rtfgnow

Right. The field tells the DS whether it is enabled or disabled. The field tells the DS to operate in autonomous or teleop. The field reads the battery voltage from the DS. This is why the driver station is hooked via ethernet to the field electronics.

Fixed

[Johnny_5]

Originally Posted by Vikesrock

Fixed

Vikesrock-

Yes, you are right